By | January 31, 2011 221 Comments

The Marriage Masks: Three types of sociopathic relationships

Here at Lovefraud, we’ve heard thousands of horror stories of marriages to sociopaths. Thinking about these unfortunate involvements, it seems to me that there are three types of romantic relationships with sociopaths. I call them the Marriage Masks, and they are:

1. Calculated exploitation

The sociopath targets an individual for the explicit purpose of exploiting him or her, using the unsuspecting partner for money, sex, a place to live or something else that the sociopath wants.

My ex-husband, James Montgomery, targeted me because I had what he wanted: money, good credit, my own home and business connections in the city where he decided he was going to make a fortune. He sweet talked me, married me and drained me, and then he moved on without a thought.

2. Passing entertainment

The sociopath finds the partner to be a suitable involvement for the present—until the sociopath gets bored, antsy, or some other individual catches his or her eye. At this point, the partner is discarded.

Mary Jo Buttafuoco described her husband, Joey Buttafuoco, in her book, Getting It Through My Thick Skull. To me, it seems that Joey Buttafuoco was one of those sociopaths who was simply looking for a good time, for entertainment. He worked and she was a stay-at-home mom, so he wasn’t using her financially. But eventually he had an affair with a teenager, then visits to hookers, then a new wife. Changing women was like changing the scenery.

3. Image creation

In order to secure a coveted place in society, the sociopath may seem devoted to his or her spouse or family in public, but life at home, behind closed doors, is another matter entirely.

Here’s an example that was recently in the news. Stephen Green, founder of a fundamentalist organization in the United Kingdom called Christian Voice, preaches against homosexuality, abortion, Islam and Jerry Springer. “The enemies of God are having their say,” proclaims the organization’s website. “It’s time to hear the Christian Voice!”

Green portrays himself as the guardian of morality in the U.K. However, Caroline Green, his former wife, paints a totally different picture—domestic violence:

He told me he’d make a piece of wood into a sort of witch’s broom and hit me with it, which he did,’ she recalls, her voice tentative and quiet. ”˜He hit me until I bled. I was terrified. I can still remember the pain.

Stephen listed my misdemeanours: I was disrespectful and disobedient; I wasn’t loving or submissive enough and I was undermining him. He also said I wasn’t giving him his conjugal rights.

Here’s the whole revolting story in the Daily Mail:

In public he rails against immorality as the voice of Christian Britain, but in private he is a wife beater, says his former partner

Missing: Ability to love

These categories are not hard and fast, and some sociopathic relationships and marriages may show signs of two or all three types. But however the disfunction manifests, the root problem is that sociopaths are not capable of feeling real love.

They are, however, capable of acting like they feel love—at least in the beginning of a relationship. I call it the luring stage—the period of time when sociopaths do everything you’d ever dream that smitten partners would do. They call, they want to be with you, they give gifts, they make you feel cherished. They do this until they hook you.

Then, sociopathic behavior starts to reflect the real agenda—calculated exploitation, passing entertainment or image creation. The change may be subtle or sudden. The relationship may gradually devolve, it may swing back and forth between normal and unconscionable, or it may suddenly evaporate.

But at some point, the Marriage Mask slips, and we come face to face with the truth: We are being used.

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It is incredibly interesting how this article was here, looking me in the face at the moment I logged on. Maybe it is a sign of some sort, as I have not been here in at least a couple of weeks, and this article (thank you Donna) seems more fitting than any other, to post what I need to say. However, I do hope that I am staying within the main point of the topic that you have layed down, here.

I haven’t been here in a while as I came to a point in my own recovery where I felt so great that I was concerened that I could sabotage my new-found freedom from the hardest parts of the process, by possibly triggering something that could cause me to back-peddle, if you will, if I were to start reading and participating here, again. But this is not why I am writing.

I was to a point where I hadn’t thought about the psychopath, nor heard from him in aproximately 3 months (I never had the desire to contact him, because once I realized what he was about, I loathed and despised him, granted, I was only in the relationshit for aprox. 9 months). I have been so GRATEFUL for the passing of my INTENSE anger (although I do have some anger) and some of the other hardships I had to contend with in the wake of th aftermath. On Friday afternnon, I got a phone call at my office, from a girl who claimed to be a victim of his, fairly recently. I know of a different victim he has at this time, however it is not the girl who called me. Oh and I must not forget to tell you that this P is MARRIED. Needless to say, I first had no knowledge, then I was told they wrere in the process of a divorce, then the words from his mouth were I will never leave my wife. Yadee, Yadee, Yadee, Blah Blah Blah. So , yes I was duped, used, etc. Now this girl calls out of the blue. I mean I did expect that someday I may get a call from someone.

Anyway, I will skip over all that was said. All of the details. I thought in the beginning of the conversation that I was speaking with a real victim, however, towards the end of the conversation it was clear as day that this person was put up to calling me, by the p’s wife. I would have gladly spoken to the wife, however. Unfortunately, since I did think I was speaking to a real victim for most of the conversation, I divulged some information that I now wish I hadn’t such as the amount of time I spent with him and possibly one or two other minor things. I no longer fear his SORRY ASS, but I do not want any trouble. We are in the same profession, and when I left my previous office (where I was working with the P), I only moved a few blocks up the street, as I am in Real Estate and needed to keep myself and my business in the same city/basic location.

After checking in with some of my associates/friends from my previous office, over the weekend, they told me that his wife has hired an attourney and has been coming into the (P’s)office, unanounced, checking people out, possibly because she knows or suspects, he is having an affair. I can assure you that he is having at least one, but possibly three.

So here I am, trying not to think about it, to stay focused on my everyday life and the things that are most important. The creep, umongst other things caused me to lose all focus, business, myself, my soul, etc. You know how it is, I am sure! I hope that I am able to think of other things this week besides possibly being served court papers to apear, and then have to relive my story, so to speak. I feel like marching into his office, myself, and in front of his new victim and everyone else (I was there for may years and I am close to almost every single agent, and they all think he is a shady user) divulge everything he did to me, both business wise and intimately. I thought this was finished, over, done with, but it is not the case, perhaps. I foresee now having to be tangeled up with this new aspect of the psychopathic occurance. YUCK!!

Thank’s for listening! I really appreciate it!



I had just recently read the book by Mary Jo Buttafuoco and was surprised how much I identified with her. All I ever wanted was a happy home and a good marriage.

My first marriage ended when my first husband turned out to be gay. He hid it very well because he was a career military officer. I had my one and only child by that marriage. She developed late onset Autism.

The interesting thing about my marriages is that both husbands were 28 years old when I married them and had not been married before nor had they been in a recent serious relationship. I was 20 when I married the first. I think he was looking for a trophy wife who he could take to Officer’s Club Parties. I was just past 30 when I met and married my second husband. He was younger than me, had purchased a house for income property but was living in it. I came knocking on his door one day as an Avon Representative. I have to kind of laugh now thinking I was like Red Riding hood going to the wolf’s door. He had two aquariums of fish, one was for the offspring. After visiting a few times as he would buy something each time to keep me coming back, he asked me if I wanted some fish. He was working the 3 to 11 shift and his mother was dying of breast cancer. I did not find it odd that he wasn’t actively dating. I invited him to dinner, had set up my own aquarium and had him bring over the fish. I also had a little stray kitten that he liked. He did buy me gifts, took me out a lot and seemed to be in love with me.

He lost his job though as the company he worked for closed. He was worried that he was going to lose his house, and I was paying rent on a rental house. His sister was the one who suggested that I move in with him and help him with his house. I was a pastor’s daughter and would not at that time consider living with someone I wasn’t married to so we got married. I know now that we would have never married so soon if it wasn’t “convenient”. I brought a large child support check into the marriage, a car, and an autistic daughter who he had a knack with. He was not afraid of her melt downs and got us out of the house.

After the initial love bombing stage our marriage became just so so. He got another job but still worked the late shift. He liked it. When he had the chance to work days once he had seniority he still would not. Therefore, I had a shift of him and a shift of my daughter. Sometimes, they would wave at each other as he was leaving and she was getting off of the school bus.

He didn’t like me changing anything in “his home”. Although he was a good provider he somehow always managed to remind me how much he hated his job. Because I couldn’t pay someone to take care of my daughter and make it worth my while to work, I was a stay at home housewife. The weekends were spent taking daughter somewhere or shopping. He always liked shopping but didn’t like to spend a lot of time at home except doing yard work. He procrastinated on home improvement projects. I was very dependent and soon started asking his opinion about everything. We couldn’t paint because we needed insulation first, I was allergic to the insulation. He blamed me for that. We couldn’t buy a new door because the frame was not level and it didn’t fit. We just kept shopping and looking but never got anything done.

I visited the neighbors, was the one who took the casseroles when they were in the hospital, was an autism advocate, and a church organist. I taught lessons, babysat, and took in office work. I did a lot of things off and on but was later deemed “WORTHLESS” by him. Why? Probably because I didn’t finish college and didn’t use my degree to support him. Later when my daughter went to a group home I worked by the school year as a ParaPro but had to interview every year to get a different job. Every time I had an interview I would ask him to change his schedule to a day shift so we could spend some time together. He always waffled plus I felt that he would resent me if he did. I always gave in to him.

Being like the frog in the boiling pot I didn’t realize what was happening. I did get my name put on the house and was co-mortgager as soon as we got married. I started writing the checks and handled the money. We still managed to get ourselves into credit card debt. I thought it was my fault. I realized however that as his shopping addiction escalated he was putting things on lay-a-way and paying for ebay purchases with money orders. As long as he paid cash for things it was ok, or so he thought. I just never could make the money stretch. I would buy him expensive items for holiday’s. He would have trouble remembering my birthday. He would remember, but would wait until the last minute at the end of the day to bring in some flowers. I always fought with him about this. You could say I stood up for myself, but I think it was more like whining. I did the same thing in my first marriage “I don’t think it is fair that……..” He never ceased to remind me who made the money.

He became a hoarder. I wanted a neat house. I was not a clean freak, but I hated clutter. I HATE HOARDING. I had the idea of starting to sell some things and get us out of debt. Whenever we had a yard sale it was usually things of mine that went. He would maybe drag things out of the garage that were rusty but they usually sold. I knew there was an unwritten law to NOT MESS WITH HIS STUFF. DO NOT EVEN MOVE HIS STUFF. I did, but it was like shoveling snow uphill trying to get anything accomplished so we just had fun. I had a fear I can’t quite explain about what would happen if I just did what he didn’t want me to do.

He finally had an affair, that I knew about. He confessed to me. I helped him get rid of her as she became somewhat of a stalker. I don’t believe I really dealt with it at the time emotionally. Later, I realized that he was still talking to her. I blamed her, not him. As sometimes happens that was the only time that our marriage got some fire in it. You know the sex became better because I felt like it was my fault that he had the affair. We bought a new car and did a few things together. That lasted for a short time.

He just didn’t seem to require a lot. He may have cheated more that I didn’t know about, but since I had a hard time getting him to change his underwear I really doubt it. I think he just liked his addictions, his stuff, and let me know not to mess with it. After all it was his house when I moved in.

One day I climbed out of that boiling pot and said “Hey just one darn minute here, this is my house too. I started taking more and more initiative. He started heaping on terrible verbal abuse. The power had shifted. He would undermine or sabotage anything I tried to do. I cleaned the bathroom once to where you could go clean blind and he swore a blue streak about my new makeup box I had put in there. I could probably count on one hand with a couple of fingers left over how many compliments I received from him. There was hardly any kissing. The sex was ok but not really love making. I would do something that I was proud of and I would ask him how it looked. He would tell me it looked good, but I had to ask, he couldn’t just throw out a compliment.

I know he used a lot of projection which I called double speak. His verbal abuse escalated, but what I had been calling passive aggressive zingers was really gaslighting. He, of course, lied when it was easier to tell the truth. I do not know why he even bothered to get married. I don’t know why I stayed with him for so long. I guess I felt trapped.

Like Mary Joe Buttafuoco, I was the adult in the relationship. I was older than him and more responsible. I also had phobia’s. I didn’t like to drive, and sometimes got panic attacks. He preyed on that fact. He also seemed like a little kid who liked to play with fireworks on the 4th of July, loved drama, created drama. When we were separated he broke into our garage, stole his own air compressor, and blamed me for letting it happen. He didn’t admit to taking it. Two years later when he came to get his stuff, the air compressor was found in the back of the garage.

Was he a sociopath? I didn’t think so until now. He is very negative and doesn’t seem to enjoy much of anything. It was always easier to blame me for his sorry ass life. He left me the week before our 25th Wedding Anniversary and right before my daughter was facing a serious 6 hour surgery.

When the divorce was finally filed, it took two court dates, preliminary, and a settle out of court meeting, and two 3 hours mediations. I bought him out of half of the house, and got alimony. That could be why he hates me so much. Even though he left and he filed for divorce, I got a good lawyer and defended myself.

I could keep writing but this seems to be the best place to put this and I am not sure it will all fit in this space.

Thanks for reading, and Thank you Donna for this place to come and talk about these things.


lesson learned


WHen you write, I am blessed. You are so clear and concise with what your experience was like. I find it so amazing that even while I was the OW in my situation, the behaviors out of some spaths here as told by their wives are almost exactly what I saw with mine. As I read your post here, more than a couple of times, I thought, were with with the same POS? Mine was a hoarder too. BIG TIME. His shop is filled with crap he doesn’t need. He’s a compulsive shopper. When he buys things and decides he doesn’t want to use it, he’d just simply put it in the shop. I wonder where the money comes from. I’ve always wondered. I think you’re right on about the OW, my dear. I remember being accused of being a stalker, but what his wife didn’t know was that he was STILL talking to me. We didn’t see one another for a few months after he confessed to her about us, but that didn’t last very long. Same bs story, different day. She’s a bitch, she’s abusive, blah blah blah….so go with your instincts on that one as you are more than correct! And there was probably more than one. I now believe that mine had more than one affair during his marriage and before me.

Mine was also extremely negative and massively dramatic about everything as well as hugely alcoholic. With all that drama, it’s not a wonder I was so addicted to it.

Thanks for sharing your story TTS. I related so much to it and I LOVE the way you write!



Of the three types of sociopath listed, mine definitely wanted the image of a perfect life and family. My two daughters even said to me “Mom, I think dad married you for your looks and you cook and clean for him”. It was pretty uncanny that they both said this to me at different times.

After we were settled down in our first house is when I started to really feel like I was invisible. He told me I couldn’t take a promotion and eventually told me I needed to quit my job.

I think the image of marriage is very important to him. As soon as I started seeing the behaviors he had been hiding, the mask slipped and holy sh**! Never thought he would attempt some of the things he tried to pull off.

In the end he is just a fake, everything about him is fake. He once said that he was afraid that people at work would find out he was a fraud. I thought he felt like he wasn’t as good as some of his co-workers, nope, he is really a FRAUD!


Eden and LL,

There are actually two women that I know about, and one was his sister. I don’t really mean that in an incestuous way. I blamed her for a lot of what went wrong in our marriage. She could talk in the same tone of voice that he did. Where she hurt me was “putting me out of the family.” She seemed to have that power. The others seem to be afraid to stand up to her. I not only lost my marriage but the extended family. As far as the OW goes, I would have never figured that one out if he had not told me. He was sick one morning, had been with her the night before as he was late getting home from work. Since I was asleep and didn’t realize that, he told me. Supposedly he was sick because he was guilt ridden. I even picked up the phone and called him in sick. I kept it together. Looking back now I think he just wanted to torture me. He actually had the flu and I caught it later.

Donna, I think his motive in our marriage was passing entertainment. He got stuck though because I became dependent and the autistic child was more than a handful.

He would have long phone conversations with his sister. I believe now that he believed he was going to inherit some money from my mom and step dad. He was very good to them, and knowing that I didn’t get along with my mother was actually surprised when she took my side in the divorce.

When I mentioned that he hated me so much, the hatred started long before the divorce. He was D and D ing me and trying to get me to leave. I didn’t have anywhere to go.

The day that he left we had spent the past four months fighting on weekends. I woke up and couldn’t quit crying. He asked me what was wrong. I told him I didn’t know. I had been working downstairs for a month getting things off of a moldy area rug so I could finally get rid of the rug. I starting taking some more things out. He protested because something might be “still good”….then he went downstairs and realized that I had already got rid of two of his coffee table books about airplanes. Yes they were nice books, but what were they doing on the moldy rung. There was so much stuff down there that things piled up on one small table had started falling off. That is when he threw his infamous tantrum and started tossing out my things, including my dad’s Bible which he tore up in front of me.

He left, but told everyone I told him to. He didn’t come to the hospital when my daughter had her surgery and said that I wouldn’t let him. Actually I had told him that he didn’t need to drive me to the hospital as my mother was going with me. He could come if he wanted to but considering how much we had been fighting I didn’t think the hospital room was a good place to finish the argument. His family thought that I made him leave, wouldn’t let him come to my daughter’s surgery, and filed for divorce. Actually he filed for divorce the day I had a yard sale which he came to the house shouting that “Everyone get off my property.” I had to call the police. They told me that since no divorce had been filed he had just as much right to be there as me. We had been separated for 8 months. We went to lawyers at the same time, but his was filed first.

One of those nights when I was talking to him, he had been researching divorce on the computer. He was taunting me with it. I was worried about some health problems. He told me that I had better get them taken care of because I was going to be without insurance soon. He had this pre-meditated……the divorce that is. He even told me that “You have been through this before.”

He came back 6 weeks later at my request to see if once and for all we could try to work this out. Both times he left he was sadistic in the things he said.

As for the other woman, I think she was as innocent as I was. I am not sure what he told her, but he told me that she would like to bump me off. Her so called stalking only amounted to a phone call, which I answered and hung up on her, and a letter of apology that I received in the mail from her. He had called her in front of me to break things off with her.

I called her another time to tell her off, but then later realized that he had definitely had an affair with her. He was playing us both of course. I minimized the whole thing. I shouldn’t have.

The one and only thing I wanted from my husband was for him to put me first. He would not. He took his sister’s side always over me. He valued his stuff over me. I settled for crumbs. I shouldn’t have. I think I now know what happened. I already had a low self-esteem, was a very trusting nice person who never in my wildest dreams would have thought that someone could be so cruel. I thought he had a personality change. He may have had a Psychotic break, but I believe that fear I felt the entire marriage about what would happen if I really stood up to him was valid. He was covert aggressive, sometimes actually aggressive, sometimes passive aggressive, but I now I know what hit me. I spent 25 years being subjected to his gaslighting.



Do Sociopaths know that something is wrong/different with them?

lesson learned


If they have even an inkling (most don’t and if they do it’s so vague so as not to matter anyway), they don’t care. They don’t admit they HAVE a problem. That’s part and parcel of their spathiness.




Thank you for sharing what you have. Your last post is especially helpful to me, personally. To hear things from the wife’s (or in this case, ex wife’s) perspective. I have put myself in her shoes, many times. My friends and family literally had to restrain me from telling her and the new victim, what had been occuring. I still attend therapy, but it is now based mainly on the guilt I have carried for the past few months of having the knowledge of what he has done and continues to do. I know that many victims/survivors do tell. I was so twisted in my thoughts from the manipulation, I believe, that I no longer trusted my own judgement, which I had always been able to trust, my entire life, prior to becoming his victim. I wrote letters to the wife and even stamped the envelopes. I kept being advised that he could harm me both physically and financially (destroy my business reputation). it wasn’t that I wanted to put myself before the others. I was the opposite of that, however I kept being reminded of the fact that if I told, and he found out, he could destroy me, as well as my childs well-being (because I am the sole supporter). I was still so confused and somewhat fearful of a few things. I knew I had to be strong enough to just focus on myself and my personal healing process. The fact that I am now aware that the wife knows, makes it somewhat easier, yet more stressful because of what I may have to contend with in the near future with regard to having to relive my experience with the psychopath.

Thank you very much, again for bringing additional things to light. It is all thought provoking and gives me more clarity.




I neglected to mention that I am sorry for the pain and unfortunate experiences that you had to edure. You sound like such a good person and mother, you did not deserve to be treated in the way that you were. Although I did not have to contend with nearly as much as you had, I could feel all that you had expressed through your writing.




Thank you. First let me say that I believe you should forgive yourself and do what is best for you. One of the most frustrating things I find is that in talking to S-paths is that they don’t “get it”. It probably doesn’t even phase them. Every time my husband hurt me and would later apologize I would tell him again how much he hurt me. Well DUH! That just gave him more knowledge of which buttons to push.

There were plenty of witnesses to both sides of him. My friends and daughter’s group home staff think “Oh he seemed like such a nice person.” The witnesses at the yard sale and the day he came to get his stuff saw the violent side of him.

The hardest thing I have had to do is keep quiet. He made that easy though as he had his phone disconnected and didn’t give me his new number. We got in the habit during mediation of not talking to each other as the lawyers advised us not to. So now we don’t. He used to just hang up on me anyway. I HATE THAT. I HATE THE SILENT TREATMENT.

Maybe that is why I find it so therapeutic to post here now. I finally get to tell my story and be believed.

There may be others on here who may advice you, if you want, to testify if you finally want him to be stopped. If you do, do so in a controlled manner. Make it count.

Do not blame yourself. It is their fault not ours.



True to Self,

Thank you for your words of wisdom. I do appreciate it very much. Thank you for telling me that I should not blame myself. I do know you are right. It is their fault, not ours. This is the only way I have been able to justify being with a married man. I still have to remind myself of the fact that initially, I was lead to believe that he was not married, nor was he in a relationship. It is how I keep my sanity about this aspect of the experience.

Many thanks, again!



“Do Sociopaths know that something is wrong/different with them?”


Personally to me, my x-spath admitted that he “takes a while to warm up to people…”

However, online he describes himself as “caring, loyal, charming, kind, considerate and genuine, loving.”

Of course keep in mind that genuine lying about your age a couple months to change your zodiac, lying about location and lying about some other personal details…


I would say YES they know something is different and wrong with them. That is why they mirror us and take our identity, that way they dont have to be themselves..


My ex married for image creation. He married his best friend. Neither one of them were having any luck in the romance department and they both had the same goals for social and financial status. His poor wife is very unattractive and downright frumpy. I think that he used that as his excuse to get with as many pretty young things that he could find. He liked pretty brunette, naive, and lonely with low self esteem and I was right up his alley. He fell all over himself trying to be my best friend as soon as I moved to town and started working with him. He was flattering me to no end and love bombing. He was complimenting me to my boss. She told me that “he has it BAD for you”. “He acts like an absolute high school boy when you’re around and when he talks about you”. He’s smitten”. I blew it off and said he only wants to be friends. I wasn’t attracted to him at first but I thought he was so sweet and he was such the gentleman-he was 53 and I was 36. We bonded over baseball and talked all the time and had lunch a lot and I still never thought anything of it. He was very protective of me when other doctors were mean to me. Gradually my feelings became like his and we finally talked about it and that it was mutual. I was really freaked out by it. I had never felt like that about anyone in my life. I was 36 and had never been in love and felt like I was falling for him. I was horrified though about him being married. We were texting a lot at that point and talking more and that’s when he started to lay on the BS con. Telling me of the strictly platonic relationship with the wife. He wanted to divorce her but was afraid that she’s take him for all that he had. They hadn’t had any kind of sex in years because he was not attracted to her and he couldn’t perform with her, all she did was spend his money, blah,blah blah, etc etc.
I cannot believe how freakin naive I was to fall for that shit. I gotta say that if an award was given out for naivety, I would get the equivalent of the oscar. That resulted from childhood but that’s a whole other story. Anyway, I fell head over heels for this man and we were serious for a year. He was my longest and my most serious relationship because I never dated much. I was very inexperienced. I never had sex like that ever-my first orgasm. The bonding was so intense and so strong that it made me cry. He had promised to help me financially while I went to the police academy and he said he wanted to have a baby with me. That was the happy part of the relationship. The dark side: How do you think it feels when the man that you’ve given your whole heart, body and soul to, leaves you and goes home to someone else at night. He has dinner with her and sleeps in bed with her. I don’t care if he’s way on the other side of the bed. (the wife confirmed that he hadn’t lied about them not having sex). The pain of that was almost unbearable. When I look back, I cried way too much in that relationship. I cried myself to sleep EVERY SINGLE NIGHT that we were together. I cried so hard for him. On holidays, I couldn’t have Christmas Eve and Christmas Day with him-it was him taking off on the 23rd to be with me. I remember how pathetic it was that I was so happy that he took off the whole day on my birthday from sunrise til sunset to be with me. Valentines Day really really sucked cuz he sure wasn’t with me. I was in love with the person that he pretended to be. After the wife found out was when I found out about all the women before me-after he promised that I was the only time that he stepped out on her because I was so special and the only true love of his life. I had never been so heartbroken in my life because he promised that he would never hurt me and that he would never lie to me.
Anyway, way to much writing about this and thinking about it. It’s so hard to believe it happened. I feel like it was a dream and some day I’ll wake up and it will have never happened. I did learn the most about myself though, and I won’t trade that lesson. I do strongly feel though that I am going to be kind of like a reformed virgin. I don’t ever want to have sex again unless I’m married. The break of that bond is too much pain for me and I don’t understand how so many women give “IT” up so easily. That’s what vibrators are for. NSA? No way. Sex is just too special for me to waste it someone that isn’t right.

Justme79: Do sociopaths know that something is wrong with them? Absolutely NOT! No way in hell. My ex believes that he can do no wrong and that the rules do not apply to him, that everyone should aspire to be like him and I have never seen a person who loves to hear himself talk more than him. My friend calls him the great vagina. I think it is a great disrespect to vaginas everywhere!!! He was in a full on psychotic break when he dumped me-total Mr. Hyde, calling me crazy in screaming at me on the front porch in front of my neighbors telling me I was BPD-it’s called him gaslighting and avoiding the real issue that he’s a freakin nutjob who needs to be formally diagnosed.


Stephen Green, founder of a fundamentalist organization in the United Kingdom called Christian Voice, preaches against homosexuality, abortion, Islam and Jerry Springer. […]

Green portrays himself as the guardian of morality in the U.K. However, Caroline Green, his former wife, paints a totally different picture—domestic violence…

Well, he preached against homosexuality, abortion, Islam… and “family breakdown, crime, immorality and drink,” among other things. But I wonder: did he ever preach against wife-beating? Perhaps he didn’t!

I imagine if Stephen Green were honest, he’d tell us he believed beating was necessary to keep “discipline” in the family. He treated his whole family this way, after all.

There’s a close comparison with the infamous nutjob Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church ( Phelps and his cronies–mostly members of his own family–have much the same obsessions as Stephen Green, particularly that intense fear and hatred of homosexuality. Also, as with Stephen Green, there’s been a lot of abuse in Phelps’s family too.

The Daily Mail article said:

Green had another agenda: he wanted to remove his growing family from urban life and isolate them from ’evil’ influences so he could exert complete control over them.

I would put this the other way round. The way the journalist wrote it, it suggests Green’s ultimate motive was to “control” his family–possibly just for the sake of control, as if “isolating them from evil influences” was merely incidental to that. I think we’d find instead that the fear of “evil” was UPPERMOST in Green’s mind, and central to his motivations. More than likely he was so utterly terrified of “evil influences” that he felt driven to isolate and control his family to “protect” them all–even if he had to beat them into submission “for their own good.”

As Alice Miller has said in her book of the same name, “For Your Own Good” is one of the world’s biggest lies. But the people who tell that particular lie, including very probably Stephen Green, honestly believe the lie. That’s part of what makes them so dangerous, especially to their own children, who have no way of knowing anything different–when they’re young at least.

On the evidence of this story, I don’t believe Stephen Green is a psychopath, though that doesn’t make him any less abusive, even dangerous. In certain respects this type of person is the opposite of a psychopath. Psychopaths are typically somewhat immune to fear. People like Green on the other hand are DRIVEN by fear, at bottom. His ex-wife Caroline pointed out how he later became “delusional” and in her words, “uncontrollable.” It’s their paralyzing fear that makes them so obsessed with controlling others, in a frantic attempt to keep their fears at bay.

One of many problems arising from this is that when people like Stephen Green are parents, they transmit their own terrors to their children. I expect there could be a genetic component to this behavior as well, but Green very likely had a father and/or a mother who terrified him as a small child with the same “fear of evil,” reinforced by beatings to “beat the Devil out of him.” Parents are Godlike figures to a small children, who have no way of knowing that what their abusive parents are telling them is nonsense and what they’re doing is cruelty pure and simple. Many children in that position are too fearful ever to question the beliefs that were “beaten into them,” in childhood, even after they’ve grown up. They can end up passing those beliefs on to their own children, together with the abusive treatment that inculcated those beliefs, just as Stephen Green was doing to his own family. I hope his wife and children are on their way to recovery.


The poor woman, so glad to see she finally escaped. I’m not 100% sure he is a classic sociopath though – seems he was relatively normal when they met in the 70s and it was his involvement in fundamentalist religion in the early 90s that sparked ‘the beginning of the end’ as his ex-wife puts it. I think the man is mentally ill – he bears all the hallmarks of schizophrenia, to me, with religious delusions. His behaviour is certainly sociopath-ic but the man himself I believe is mentally ill. Only because he was normal for a good 20 years of their relationship and it was religion that turned him into a maniac. He’s schizophrenic, I’m sure….

Denise Guiney

Yea Exploitation is the name of the game. These losers must share some genes with cuckoos and other such. They have a shopping check list for what they are looking for and they want it a discount price.



Fabulous post. Just ticks every box as to what I experienced in the mercifully short time I had with the P. especially the passing entertainment, change of behaviour when he had my trust after selling me a load of pretty lies, using my connections to suit his own brutal agenda of robbery and stolen energy, leaving me washed up on the beach exhausted.

When the mask slipped, what I faced was indescribable. The lie was more than I could handle. I was totally devastated. On every level I hurt terribly, and felt the ground had been whisked from under me. Im back standing, a little wobbly but back. That creepy alien is out there with his inability to love, but incredible ability to lie. Watch out


I am new to Lovefraud and am really finding great help and support here.
I married my sociopath and had 2 children to him.
I had come from a physically and emotionally abusive relationship of 18 years when I met my socio.
Hmmm where to start?
I met him in Feb 2004 and he poured on the love. I thought I had met the man of my dreams and that all the crap I had experienced previously was now behind me. Think again girl!
He married me for 2 of the above reasons. The calculated exploitation and the image creation.
He had me hooked very early on and knew exactly how to play me. Only now have I worked out why? He has been with over 400 women and counting. So he has plenty of experience in hooking them.
He knew he wanted to marry me less than 3 weeks into the relationship. How? Because he met my father who had travelled from another state to visit and my father had met him and was talking about his latest business venture and how he had plans of making millions (this didn’t happen but the lure and suggestion were enough for my socio) So he had his plan. He conned my family and they all thought he was my knight in shining armour. Little did they know either.
We moved in together about 9 months later and married in Oct 2005. My father paid for the wedding and I even paid for the wedding bands..(should have got a hint there eh?)
I was actually 9 weeks pregnant at the time and happened to have a miscarriage on the day of the wedding. I spent my honeymoon in the hospital while he went across the road to the hotel and playes the pokies because he said he hated hospitals. I was alone and scared. I wil never forget that time. His response to me was – well I never did want children out of marriage. We can just have another one now we are married!
I should have left then, but I didn’t. I was so in love with this man I thought I knew. This image of the person I had always wanted. This person that said he loved me forever.

He inherited $50,000 from his Nan that passed and we were going to use it on a deposit on a home for our new family.
This never happened as I found out much later down the track he spent every last cent on ebay buying crap.
I might add he is also like so many of the others have described as a hoarder.
He has 2 warehouses full of rubbish that he says is valuable and when he sells it, it wil be for the children..
The rubbish I am talking about are old newspapers (not old as in valuable just read newspapers spanning the last 5-7 years) approx 80,000 cassette tapes,thousands of videos, old books, magazines, football memorabilia and general opportunity shop junk.

In 2006 I had my first child and that is when things really went downhill. I had been working up until 3 weeks before the birth and the day I left on maternity leave he calls to say he lost his job. Now I am stressed. I have my beautiful daughter and she is very tiny and has to stay an extra week at the hospital. I was heartbroken, I had to leave my baby girl there and go home. He never even seemed to notice. I would go in on the bus every morning before 8am because he was always running late for work and couldn’t possibly drop me off at the hospital and get to work now could he?
The same day I had given birth to our daughter he had caused a huge scene at the hospital with my mother because she couldn’t use her mobile phone properly. Screaming and yelling at her that it could have been an important call she missed. I had the head nurse asking him to leave.
My mum was going to stay for a week with me after my baby was born to help me out. She left in a couple of days because she couldn’t stand my husband any longer.
He robbed me of that time. He robbed me of many things. One thing that I think is noteworthy is that he never came to one obstetrician appointment with me. And when I tried to show him the video of our baby (done on the ultrasound) he was very disinterested. I put it down to stress and worry at the time. Now I know better.

Things were beginning to get worse. He said it was me that changed and sure I did. I just had my first baby and lots of things to learn and do with zero help from him. To this day he does not know what to feed our children or how much, how to heat it etc etc. He of course turned that back on me saying that I undermine his ability and he can never do it right, but I believe in showing someone how to do it is not undermining them but merely sharing the experience together. Surely as a father you want to know how to change, feed, bath or help your baby? That is where I was wrong.
I was pregnant with my second child within 3 months and this is where things went seriously wrong. I had now been out of work for 6 months and no more maternity leave money left and no more baby bonus payment from the government, he turned to working from home and claiming off the government. He made me lie for him. Now this is where I arc up because I will NOT lie for anyone. Now the arguments really set in because I don’t want to do it. I make myself heard.
He can rant and rave for hours. I am nearing 6 months pregnant and my daughter is screaming but he continures to shout me down, no matter how many times I say to him – please for our daughters sake- he just keeps on ranting that it is cause and effect. I am the cause and he is the effect. This statement rings in my ears even to this day. Why should I lie for him? He says it is the wifes job to stand up for her husband and support him. Well I am sorry I cannot support lying.
Anyway neighbours would call the police as the shouting and crying of the baby were so loud that they were even worried.

I was put on notice that if the police were called again they would take my child from me! Now he had something he could use to control me with.
So each time he would shout or want his own way he would say well if the police come you know what they will do.

The time draws nearer to the birth of my son.
It gets harder to do simple things like fit in the shower to clean it so I have to rely on him to do it. HA!
I have to write it in the diary with at least 2 weeks notice. What? Who doesn’t clean their shower at least once a week?
So I put it in and wait. Finally on the last day of the 2 weeks he begins to clean the shower but only does one wall and says he will finish it off the day later. A week later he does another wall and I am sure you get where this story is going. I just did it myself 8.5 months pregnant cleaning the shower.

Anyway this was normal life with him now. I literally was beginning to hate him.

I had my son and was put under general for it as there were some complications. Again my Mother came to spend the week with me and this time left the day after he was born. Why?
Same old. This time my socio husband caused a scene firstly on the phone to his mother who was at the time having a full on whinge that I had addressed a letter to her and forgot to write in MRS in the title. Terribly sorry and yes your grandson is beautiful thanks for asking.
Then the second argument with my mother was so loud that the nursing staff asked me to tell my husband to leave as the woman in the next room was frightened. Great. 2 children and twice he had to ruin that moment for me. Why? I think because he wanted to have the limelight, the control and all the attention.

The story continues that now I have a 1 year old and a newborn to look after. With all the promises in the world of his undivided attention and help. LIE! I did it all myself. And even when my son turned 2 weeks old I think it was I ended up unable to walk as after 2 c-sections in 1 year my back just gave way with the strain, I spent 4 months sleeping in a chair as I was unable to lie down at all. And when I stood I did so with my torso at 90 degree angle unable to straighten. I was taped upright and heavily medicated but nothing would work.
And during this time he never helped me. I stil looked after my baby and my 1 year old, fed, changed, bathed, washed, cooked etc. Looking back now I have no idea how the heck I did it?
The power of a mother eh?
We were looking for a larger house to rent and I found one brand new on the other side of the city. He was very disgruntled by this as he only liked living in the south. I was later to find out that is because the majority of women he was seeing were on the south side.

We moved to the west and after the promise of a new life with no shouting and a more calm atmosphere for our children. This lasted all of 3 days. After 1 month I said that is it.
I told him no more, No more broken promises, no more shouting and abuse, no more. And of course I got the usual catch cry of Cause and Effect but I was dead serious. You can mess with me but mess with my kids mate and that is it.

He begged to be allowed to stay and that I was being unfair. I said he could have 1 month to find a place to stay and he had to be out so he set it for the 1st July as that was the beginning of the new financial year. It would be easier to work out expenses that way.

You know my whole time with this socio has left me with a huge debt of $40,000 as it was always my credit cards that were used to pay for things. Even a car that when we separated he demanded I pay him half the value as he considered the debt was half his too, so I should pay him out as he was prepared to pay for half of the debt on the credit card. ?????
Not falling for that one I assure you.

After he left I always got the you put me on the street plight and I could be raped or murdered and it would be your fault guilt trip so much so I did let him come back once. That didn’t even last a month.
He would stay in backpackers and hotels. He even gave me and my children scabies once when he visitied. And then said it was my fault as I must have had someone stay in my house that had it. It wouldn’t have been him.

Well it wasn’t until he left and I started to go through all his stuff that he had left behind. What made me do it? I don’t know. Instinct? Things that didn’t add up?

I found out so much in that time. Businesses that he has ripped off whilst we were married, the multiple women he had been seeing, the lies that he told about why he had lost his job, the lies he told about family, the lies he told about his friends, the lies just in general. It was all so overwhelming, I could not believe the stuff I was finding. Love letters, notes, diary entries, phone numbers, email addresses, dating sites, emails, tax fraud, unemployment fraud, bank loan application fraud and the list goes on. He has 4 phone numbers. And phone messages left from other women, paying other women money. I even found proof that he had joined a new dating site 3 months after we married. WOW! Things started to fall in place. Why he didn’t have a job although he was out 12 hours a day searching, probably because he wasn’t looking but was with someone else diarised in code.
I have since set up a blog on this man and am calling for any other victims to come forward, whether business or personal. I know he has been with over 400 women so there is bound to be quite a few. He used me as an image builder and even though we are now divorced he still says and uses me and my children as excuses to others. Such as he needs it for his family and so forth. This man does not care about us and no matter how much he shouts it out I know that deep in my heart. As heartbreaking as that is, I know he does not care for his children. At 4 months my daughter had uncontrollable vomiting and I rushed her to emergency. He did not come. He was playing cricket. And at 18 months my son nearly died of an asthma attack. He never showed. He was volunteering at his local footy club. So things like that really bring it home to me that this socio is what he is and is totally unable to feel the love I feel for my children.
The thing that saddens my heart every day is the chance that because they are his children too they have the genes and may have biologically inherited this from him. But be assured I will do everything in my power to teach them to love, respect, care and have concern for all people and animals on this planet and beyond. That is my life long mission.

Thanks for such a great article. Very inspiring and I hope no-one minded me writing so much about myself.


@stopcalvinthom-sharing is part of the healing process. It helps us process & release the energy of what’s stored up inside. All of us that have had our own experiences with spathes, have to come to peace with the experience, and forgive ourselves too, for allowing it to go on for so long. Mine’s lasted about four months, three and a half months too long…In retrospect, I saw all the signs and simply choose to ignore it because I couldn’t accept that she was really totally remorseless and lacking in empathy.


Thanks for your post. It’s all very familiar, though my ex is more of a borderline personality/narcissistic person. Not quite a sociopath. Well, your post helped me.

Overall, this blog has been so helpful in understanding these odd people and learning how to avoid/deal with them. Thank you!




I have finally made it back to this life-saving site! Formerly “Buttons” and moving forward down my healing path.

The ex-spath fell into each of these categories at various times depending upon what his motives were and situational “demands.” He morphed and varied his crazymaking behaviors according to his own designs. My personal feeling is that someone who is predisposed to spathy will jump from one category to the next and the only trait that remains constant and unwavering is the spath’s desire to use and abuse: either use someone’s money or abuse their trust, etc.

Thanks for your continued work, Donna! Information can provide empowerment!

Brightest blessings!


Welcome back Buttons…..My X can take on different personailties with diffferent victims, he can go from masculine and dominant with one guy too feminine and submissive with the next…chamilion’s – not sure if i spelled that right but they blend into each relationship the best way they can to capture their prey….predator’s is what they are, cold blooded predators.


Be forewarned: sociopaths do any and everything they can to instigate jealousy, fear, suspicion in every relationship he is involved in. The women who are his EXES are still involved. The sociopath gets all the women fighting with each other. This distracts all the individual women from focusing their anger on HIM- instead they project it onto each other. It’s easy for him to manipulate everybody, and he may even pretend that he had nothing to do with planting the anger, and act like it’s not his fault and even feign distress. All the while he is congratulating himself on his ability to control an “organization” of bickering women, including women that he may want to use in the near future. Sociopaths often maintain at least one, possibly many women on “standby”. He may even stoop so low as to convince his present girlfriend into filing a complaint with the police against his ex-wife, ex-girlfriend. You’d think law enforcement wouldn’t be so easily fooled because the complaint usually features mis-information and no information or outright lies (often the complainer believes the lies to be true- and guess why).

Ox Drover

Dear STopCalvin, welcome and glad you were able to share your story, and I hope you will look at Dr. Liane Leedom’s web blog (there’s a link here on LF) “Parenting the at risk child”—there are some great supports there for the parents who must “co-parent” with a psychopath and raise their children.

BUTTONS!!!!! I second Henry’s (dances with moon) welcome back !!!! Glad you are doing well. I’m still here marching along the path of healing one day at a time and most of the time doing pretty well (if I do say so myself! LOL)

Ox Drover


WELL PUT!!!!! Good points!


I agree with all of your comments. Very insightful.

Don’t even get me started on Fred Phelps! Malignant Narcissist Poster Child.
He beat is children almost to death on a regular basis, all 12 of them. They all have some permanent injuries that still plague them. He starved them and made them go out and sell candy bars to support his “church” (read that, support him) but he wouldn’t let them eat any of the candy even when they were starving. The most interesting part is that only 2 have left him and remember the beatings which left welts and bleeding. The rest only remember that they were spanked.

It’s trauma bonding at it’s finest.

Of course, as they grew up he stopped beating them, because they were too big and probably wouldn’t put up with it. That’s when the techniques become more subtle. Soon all the trauma is forgotten and they kids think he was a “great dad”.

That’s what my parents did.

Alice Miller has great insights into this stuff.

super chic

stopcalvinthom, so sad for you and your children, he is such a heartless SOB,
no one should have to go through this, I’m glad you shared your story,
we all learn from each other and you are very articulate.
You sound like a wonderful mother and a strong survivor!!!
Your children are very lucky to have you!!

I hope you’re keeping all the paperwork you found in a very safe place!!


thanks for sharing and welcome.
Your story is so classic. You did a great job describing the way he blatently disregarded your feelings at every possible opportunity. It was as if he was set on testing your boundaries and he found you had none – until you had kids.

Then it was “goodbye MoFo”. Congrats on the escape.

I just wish that you and I had had the boundaries and self-esteem to say, “No, I don’t like being treated that way” from the very first time, you know, way back when we had all the $$$$ in the bank. Instead, we didn’t feel a thing and now we just have debt.


For sure, the sociopath who targeted me, was calculated from the start. Once he was sure that I met all of his criteria, he pretended to have love and affection–even going so far as a big, romantic proposal in front of my whole family at a wedding reception. But it was all a scam. At the end of nearly two years in which I never had a comfortable day, I overheard him on the phone with this brother when he thought I wasn’t home. He told his brother that he just needed to keep me happy for the next few months until he was out of college and then he would send me off to my sister’s for a weekend and pack up everything while I was gone and leave. I threw him out that night. After that, the truth was very apparent. It was always a niggling feeling that I tried to push down and whenever I would have doubts about his sincerity and commitment, he was always very reassuring. But that feeling I had was the truth and I wished I had listened earlier. It was all a ruse–I worked and provided a nice home and stability while he finished his degree and planned for the next phase in his life. Now, he is doing the same thing to other people and it drives me nuts that there is nothing I can do to stop it from happening to someone else. I pray for justice–that he receives justice. I later found out that I am at least the 4th or 5th woman he has done this to.


I can only imagine how you felt when you overheard that phone conversation – good for you for kicking his sorry ass out that nite.

Ox Drover

Dear Slthomp,

Welcome, and like Dances with Moon (Henry) I am glad that you had the back bone to toss his sorry arse out that night!

Yep, they DO take advantage of us, and we feel really hurt and betrayed, but the LESSON WE GET is a good one if we will use it so. If we fail to learn from adversity, then we have missed a great opportunity!

Actually, he will get “justice” just by being who he IS. It must be a miserable life to be what they are, to have no link to others, not have the ability to love—pretty pitiful if you ask me. I would rather be scammed by one that BE ONE. Congratulations on your waking up! You are the winner believe that or not.


Wow Redwald, I just saw your comment! You basically suspect the same as I do – that this is a man with severe religious mania, he’s mentally ill.

Ox Drover

Redwald and Genevieve, I agree he could be anything from bi-polar to some other form of severe mental illness, unfortunately, with the media we aren’t going to have a “complete picture” of what is going on with this family or this man, and while we may be “arm chair quarterbacks” and try to “diagnose” what is going on–psychopath? or mental illness? there’s really no way we can actually hang a valid label on what is going on, only our “view” of it.

Whatever is his problem, though, it is detrimental to the children and the family relationship. Sometimes I think we are way too quick to label someone a psychopath and other times we are so liberal and open minded our darned brains fall out the holes! LOL

I’m not sure where to draw the line except that we can only tolerate what is not toxic to ourselves and things that are toxic or abusive we have to draw the line on.

BloggerT and I have had many a “spirited discussion” on judging others via the media and hanging labels of psychopath etc on people when we really can’t, and I am agreeing with him now, shouldn’t hang a psychopathic label on a pure run of the mill arsehole or most likely mentally ill person.

Doing so in many ways “cheapens” the term “psychopath” which should be reserved for the worst of the worst….not just pasted on every person who is a jerkwad.

Of course Dr. Leedom also has a valid point in that there is a scale of psychopaths, from bad to worse, and not all psychopaths are equal.

In the learning about psychopaths and learning about ourselves and healing ourselves, I think there is as much PHILOSOPHY as there is PSYCHOLOGY.

lesson learned


This might seem like a stupid question.

But what’s the difference between a jerkwad and a sociopath?


Ox Drover

A jerkwad won’t score 30 or above on the Psychopathic check list-revised and a sociopath will score 30 or above…but they are both toxic, both will use and abuse you, and you dont’ want to be around either one.

NO contact is the order of the day for either of these “animals.”



Ox Drover

Thunder sleet here today moving in! Interstate I-40 in OK is closed with 4 ft snow drifts just west of Ft. Smith, AR, and no one is digging wells in Missouri as the whole state except for the bootheel is under blizzard warnings! ….and you are LAUGHING HENRY????? Are you insane????

Throw them weiners out in the snow (except for sweet Harley) and find sum’n to do! LOL


Lesson Learned,

I just posted something that I was addressing to you, on the O for Umbrella thread. I clicked on preview, but my post disappeared. Because the thread is so long, there are multiple pages, if I am explaining correctly. Can you or somebody else her, tell me how I would “go to next page”. I cannot locate where to proceed with this. I am thinking that my post may still be there, but in preview status. I do so appreciate it!

Many thanks!



Dis regard my previous post. My post on O for Umbrella is gone. Poof… I will write again, later however.



Dear Stopcalvin:

I think we were married to the same man. lol
I had 3 children with the xsocio. SAME stuff went on!
Even the part about the first child having to stay in the hospital and he wouldn’t drive me in!! OMG.
The only difference is that I don’t know if he had other women. I never thought of checking back then.
It didn’t matter, because I wanted OUT when he started
abusing the children…and I finally got him out and got divorced.
He hasn’t seen the children..and doesn’t pay support…they are 13,14 and 16.
I am SO glad that I got him out of my life. A competent mental health professional diagnosed him as a Socio right before the final divorce, when he tried to come back.

I didn’t know anything about sociopathology back then. I only found out about it when I attracted another one into my life, 5 yrs after the divorce! I’m glad he’s gone too.

My children are all loving and caring and honor students.
Bruce Lipton did studies…If you take a bad cell and put it into a good can change it.

Mission accomplished. My kids are NOTHING like him at all.


lesson learned


Ox? Did you just say what I thought I read you said?

Throw the weiners out in THAT weather? **shocked**

DM, weiners would not survive stepping a PAW outside the front door.


lesson learned


I”M SO BUMMED!!! Please write again. I would love to get your take on it!



Yes LL you are right and Ox is a jerkwad….

lesson learned





Now, this is a GREAT article. Very helpful to take a look at it this way 🙂


Tobehappy, maybe you were just lucky and it was not their destiny to develop psychopathy. Maybe it could happen the next generation, or maybe the next one.

How many normal, caring parents had a psychopathic child? Many i’m afraid, but if they look at the family tree do they find any psychopath/s? Probably. But it needs to be recognised and till today it always was covered up.

Or maybe despite the suspicions it’s not genetic, or maybe most of people are carriers of the gene. Or maybe we who think in the existence of psychopaths are the crazy and the wierd ones.

I explain people what a psychopath is and most of people say “Eva, this is the description of a classical son of a bitch. What? Now are they called psychopathic instead of twisted bastards?. There are lots of them”

I maintain my theory that psychopaths will eat us alive 😀 while most of people maintain the theory that they’re just a bit bad but that they can be fixed with a bit of patience and affection.

Ox Drover

Henry!!!!!!! I only score 28 on the PCL-R, what do you mean I am a jerkwad!???? LOL I didn’t tell you that you had to tear their little toe nails out now did I? Noooooooo!!! I just said toss them outside so they can move their bowels outside instead of inside, didn’t say you had to leave them out there for the duration! LOL

My Bud dog wanted out this morning until he saw what the weather was, then he decided he “didn’t need to go” so badly after all, toe under the bootie and he was out the door for a few minutes—in his cute little sweater! But I ain’t pickin’ up no poopie off the floor for a grown up doggie, won’t kill’em to go outside long enough to squat, if God didn’t intend for them to poop and pee outside he wouldn’t have made Wal Mart Dog sweaters for $5.

Sometimes Bud will even go back to the door to check and see if the weather outside STILL sucks! LOL

BTW wonder how the great treasure dig is coming along with EB? Wonder how many feet of snow they are having to look through to get to the ground? Hope she finds a million bucks! Then she can pay for us to all have a vacation in Florida!

lesson learned

ROFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My weiner has an “I love Grandma” sweater that we put on him. Hilarious. Kids bought it for me for HIM for christmas a few christmas’s ago. He gets a WHIFF of cold air and he does the whole manipulation shit. “I AIN’T GOIN OUT THERE GRAMMA DON”T MAKE ME” look on his face. WHATEVER! You’re GOING.

I hate doing it though. lol! Poor thing. Shivers like a battery operated Elmo.

OH well…


Ox Drover


I agree with you, they WILL EAT US ALIVE!!!! I think probably we all have the genetic traits to some extent, but what makes one person’s genes “turn on” and them become a psychopath and another person’s genes don’t–???—just don’t know, but genetics isn’t it entirely and environment isn’t it entirely either, seems some combination of them both.

I can’t imagine that there is any family that doesn’t have some Ps in the gene-pool, and I can’t imagine that there is any family that doesn’t have a victim or two as well. I think there are genes and environments for both, and possibly one is the “flip side” of the other, those of us who are “frequent fliers” as victims may have some gene + some environmental stimulus that makes us more likely to be picked as a victim and to stay there longer. I think we see both frequently in families like mine where some are victims/enablers and some are psychopaths.

There was a researcher at Ft. Roots VA facility in Little Rock years ago who started out with a litter of puppies, and he bred the most timid to the most timid, and the most aggressive to the most aggressive for about 20 + generations of dogs and starting with ONE litter of pups he ended up with two groups of dogs, one which would eat your arse and the other which would pee all over itself trying to be subservient to you.

It seems like though with the psychopaths that they tend to pick not another aggressive person to pair with, though that does happen, but more pair with a “victim” person who may be outgoing, smart, etc, but still have an excess of compassion or empathy. So the offspring would maybe get the aggressiveness and high risk taking from the P but have a chance to get the empathetic components from the other parent so might not turn out to be a psychopath.

I do tend to think though that I must have some of the genetic material there even though I don’t think I’m a psychopath, and though my x-husband wasn’t a psychopath, still my P son has a full fledged psychopathic bent with plenty of risk taking and violence, but BOTH his grandfathers I think were “card carrying” psychopaths, and on my side there are many psychopaths back further than that on both sides. Don’t know about husband’s family further back for sure, but suspect on his father’s side as well, and I do know his mother was a very passive, enabling and abused woman picked by a very dominant male for a wife.

I’ve always been very interested in genetics and still am. In livestock, cattle, horses, and dogs, I know that aggression or quiet dispositions are very heritable. I culled my cow herd for many generations for disposition with great success. Still every once in a while a “wild one” would pop up that seemed wild from birth without any bovine “trauma” to account for the wild or aggressive temper. By the same token sometimes one would pop up that would be so tame from birth or weaning that it was practically a lap-cow. I also experimented with “imprinting” at birth and found that there seems to be some definite differences in ones that were imprinted vs ones that were not. Especially with equines (horses, donkeys, mules etc) though I think there is also with bovines (cattle). In imprinting, the animal is stroked, rubbed, breathed on, your smell put in his nose, mouth and ears as soon after birth as possible, the sound of your voice is implanted in his ears as well. I had one baby donkey that was imprinted and she preferred me to her mother, would only go to her mother for food, but seemed to prefer my companionship.

Research has shown that baby humans need touch from their mothers and mothers need touch with their infants to bond. I have seen poor bonding in teen mother/baby relationships because of the medical care given the baby or mother, or if the baby is taken away from the mother too soon. Restoring those bonds or implementing them is one very important step for medical and nursing personnel but is often neglected I think.

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