By | September 2, 2011 208 Comments

Today I told a lie, because the truth was too unbelievable

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (Retired)

I don’t have much use for people who lie ”¦ but sometimes I have resorted to it myself, and today was one of those days.

You know, sometimes psychopaths are sort of like a sexually transmitted disease, they are the “love that keeps on giving in a negative way,” it seems, forever.

What brought me to telling a lie, because it was just more believable than the truth, was a convoluted story about the “Trojan Horse Psychopath” who infiltrated my family. This man is a three-time convicted child molester who had been a former cell mate and friend to my son, Patrick Alexander, who is in prison in Texas for murder. My son had sent him to infiltrate our family as a “friend,” and position himself to be able to kill me and take over our family resources. The Trojan Horse Psychopath had worked on my farm and helped out with my elderly family member, and thus gained access to my home and sneaked into my personal documents.

I’m a meticulous record keeper, and very organized with my record keeping, and pretty well know how to lay hands on any document I need instantly. I have a fire safe in my office that is never locked, because it is small enough to steal and carry off. I have a sign on the front of it that reads, “There is nothing of any value in this safe, the combination is X-Y-Z, it contains only business documents I want to protect from fire.”

Vehicle titles

The titles to my several vehicles and trailers that are used around the farm are, and have been for years, kept in the slot on the inside of the door to the safe. Since I haven’t bought or sold any vehicles or trailers (except for the recreational vehicle I bought to live in when I fled my home in the summer of 2007), I had not had any cause to go through any of these titles, or even count them, until yesterday. I decided to sell a Conestoga wagon, and the flat-bed trailer that I used to transport it, so I went to the safe to get out the title to the trailer and it was gone! Going through the titles there, I realized that four of the titles to various vehicles and trailers were missing!

The Trojan Horse Psychopath had been arrested in August 2007, when he and my son’s wife tried to kill my oldest biological son, after my son discovered they were having an affair, so he hadn’t had access to my documents since several months before his arrest. But prior to then, he had stolen documents and “messed with” my credit card accounts, my cell phone account, and other items that kept me spinning in my insanity. He would order items off “late night television” and have them sent to my house, like those “Send me $49 and I will make you a real estate millionaire,” and those “clubs” for music and videos that are like the Mafia, once in you can never get out! He even signed me up for interest in Scientology, and I still get tons of mail filling up my post office box from that group. He took over my cell phone account and deleted my contact numbers and added and deleted services and turned it on and off.

Nice ladies

So today when I had to go to the department of motor vehicles to request the replacement of four vehicle and trailer titles, there was no way I was going to tell this tale of woe to the nice ladies behind the desk. There was no way they would have believed me if I had told them the truth of why I needed that many titles replaced, so I took the easy way out and I lied. (So shoot me!)

I told them that my grandkids had been playing “office” and had gotten into my important papers and destroyed them. The nice ladies believed my lie and I paid my fees and the titles should come in the mail in just a few days.

I sort of feel guilty about telling the nice ladies the lie, but there was no way they were going to believe that a pedophile ex-convict from Texas got into my documents and randomly destroyed and stole some of them just to mess with my mind. Maybe I should have used this as a “teaching opportunity” to educate these women about psychopaths (I was the only customer in the office with three nice ladies), but I had to be quick in order to get to the court hearing of the ex-minister of our little country church who had been arrested for child pornography and Internet stalking of a child. I didn’t want to explain to them why I was in such a hurry either.

Here’s the news story on

Man, 58, arrested after Internet sting: Agri inspector

Predator in court

I didn’t want to miss his court date, and as it turned out, I was the only one from my community there. He was, I believe, very shocked to see me walk into the courtroom in the small country town about a hour and a half drive north of where I live. I was dressed very nicely in my “pillar of the community matron goes to court or funerals” ensemble. Court had not yet convened and people were quietly talking among themselves in the spectator section of the room.

As I walked by where he was seated, waiting for his turn in front of the judge, I slapped him cheerfully on the back and said, “Hi, Dicky, what are you doing here?” I didn’t wait for a response, but kept on purposefully walking and sat down a couple of rows directly behind him, where he couldn’t see me unless he turned around in his seat, which he didn’t do, but sat facing forward, looking neither to the right or the left. None of his family was there, and though most of the defendants in the courtroom seemed to have friends or family with them, no matter what the charges were. He was alone. I don’t doubt that he felt my eyes boring into the back of his neck.

I never did particularly like this man, even when he was preaching at our little community church. His messages always seemed to me to be shouted and angry, rather than uplifting and loving. He presented an angry God, not a loving father. In fact, several months after my husband’s accidental and very sudden death, I was very sensitive to shouts or loud talking, and I actually went to this man privately and asked him very nicely (I thought) to “tone it down,” and to shout less, and maybe the attendance at our little church might stop dropping. My request was not received well, needless to say.

He did, however, embrace the Trojan Horse Psychopath and my (now ex) daughter-in-law, both before and after their arrests for trying to kill my oldest son. My requests (before their arrests and afterwards) went unheeded, and I was basically told not to bother him, he was “too busy” to get involved in my problems.

Sixth sense

It really isn’t all that noble of me to glory in the downfall of those that I don’t like, but at the same time, it is validation of my “sixth sense” about people. Almost every time I have ignored my dislike of someone there has been something, somewhere down the line, that has validated my “spidey sense” about that person. Several times that “something” has been child molestation or murder, or all of the above, though at the time I felt the intuitive dislike for that person, I never dreamed that they would molest children or be responsible for someone’s death. I just thought, “I don’t like that person,” or, “there’s something about them I don’t trust.”

It is important, I think, that we listen to our intuition about predators, and believe me, psychopaths are predators on two legs. They camouflage themselves and try to blend into the landscape just like a lion does, but there is something within us that, if we listen to it, will many times protect us. If we “turn it off” or “tune it out,” however, it can’t protect us from the predators. Just like the antelope must be alert for the lion, we must be alert for the psychopaths that prowl the savannas of our lives. When we get a whiff of “there’s a predator about,” we must honor that intuition in order to survive. Even if no one else would believe it!

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Oxy ~ Great article, as usual. I think that the lie to the nice ladies at the DMV was perfectly understandable and acceptable.

I have something to confess to you. I first “met” you on Aftermath. I remember reading your story and saying to myself “OK, we’ve got a live one here” This is just too unbelievable to be for real, this woman must have been kicked in the head by one of those oxen. The more I read and interacted with you, I realized you just can’t make stuff like this up. That is when I got real serious about educating myself on sociopaths. While it didn’t take me long to see you were for real, there was a moment there.

This is why the lie to the ladies was the ONLY way to go. You got to walk out with what you needed without having three women thinking they had just encountered someone two wings short of a bucket.

On to sixth sense, I feel I am pretty good at “gut feelings” too. In my head, not outloud, I automatically put people I instinctively dislike in the “waste of oxygen” slot. Move on and stay away, don’t dismiss or as you put it “turn it off”, just stay clear.

“Hi, Dickey what are you doing here” – I love it when a plan comes together.

Thanks for being here for all of us.


Holy cow! This makes my story with a sociopath seem…pretty tame in comparison.

donna dixon

Hi Joyce,

It is so hard to comprehend how you could have gone through all you have and still come out with a great sense of humor!! Kudos to YOU!!!

I agree with Dawn, I almost feel lucky that what I endured with my spath pales in comparison with yours. You are truly a STRONG woman!!

I always thought I had good intuition about people but often find myself wondering how I couldn’t get the “vibe” from the masked knight/now “nut job” I married. LOL!

Ox Drover

Dear Milo,

Yep, I remember you from Aftermath….the person I wrote about on Aftermath (in addition to my story about my son etc) that I took in as a “victim” who turned out to be a psychopath in disguise, was a poster from LF and also (under a different name) on AFtermath…she eventually got kicked off Aftermath blog, but when I put up my story about taking her in and how she turned out to be a FALSE victim, only a psychopath posing as a victim, she complained to the management and got my story (though it had no NAMES even screen names) removed, so I quit posting on Aftermath, and several others that used to post there also quit posting there.

Yes, I realize my story does sound “insane” and you would not be the ONLY or the FIRST to think I was a nut job….when I went to an EMDR therapist, after a 2 hour intake interview he was not sure I was not a paranoid nut job and I had to take my son D in and some documents to prove that “Yes, really, almost my entire family is lined up to try to kill me” LOL

I have apparently been born in a nest of vipers, and then attracted them as well….because I did not know what “normal” people were! I’m learning though.

Glad you liked the article, but it was a CRAZY day. The fact that I survived it and it didn’t “eat me alive” –especially finding out 4 years after the fact that the Trojan Horse had apparently gone through my DMV titles and just randomly removed 4 to fark with my mind when I did find them missing. I am sure he was chortling all these years wondering when I would discover a bunch of the titles missing and what a Pain in the rear it would be to replace them. No telling what ELSE is missing that I may not discover for another four years! LOL

Donna and Dawn, my story may be more bizzare than yours but it doesn’t mean that your pain was less real than mine. Pain is pain, and I realized in reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” about the emotional effects of the Nazi prison camps on people, is that pain acts like a gas, and it expands to fill the container. So ALL PAIN is total. If a baby drops a passy and cries, his PAIN IS TOTAL. If someone you love dies, your PAIN IS TOTAL. The two events are not the same, but in both cases the pain is TOTAL.


Hi Ox. Spot on as usual. Sometimes we do have to lie because no one would believe the truth or because we would have to give too much detail. I think of it more as giving info on a need to know basis.

My spath used to say to me ‘you lied’ and I would say ‘no, I only told you what I wanted you to know’ (and left out the other bits!)

LMAO at the ‘spidey senses’


Oxy ~ It was actually the story of the woman you took in that made me realize you were for real.

I also pegged a woman on there, maybe the same one it doesn’t matter, but I fell for her story at first as it was kind of similar to mine. Then I went back and read all her postings from the beginning. Wow, it was all there in black and white, lies and contradictions. Just for the fun of it I googled her username. Bingo, up popped all kind of sites, from social media to you name it. She told all kind of sob stories, no one exactly alike. I kept my mouth shut and just never replied to any of her posts. It did teach me a very important lesson though. She had almost EVERYONE on there conned and they poured sympathy on this woman. I still see some people mentioning they are thinking about how she is doing, now she is gone. How could a whole group of people that are shouting the “red flag” signs be so easily fooled? I know the answer, these S/P people are GOOD at what they do.

Anyways, let’s be careful out there people – shall be the lesson of the day

Ox Drover


Well, this woman who fooled me (for a while) also fooled some professionals, who frankly I think would not recognize a psychopath unless it was in prison stripes!

The thing it taught me, and actually I am GLAD for this experience, because I DID LEARN A LOT FROM IT at not much cost, is that many times the person who presents themselves as an “innocent victim” is actually a psychopath who got bested in their last relationship and is now using the PITY ME, THE POORRRR VICTIM ploy as a way to get close to the NEXT VICTIM.

This woman was very bright, educated and articulate, and she knew all about psychopaths and could write the most engaging advice to people on LF and on Aftermath as well. She did not have any intention though of helping herself or getting a job. Even when she was given an opportunity to make money by doing editing jobs over the internet by a legitimate outfit (I knew them) she would not do it….all she wanted to do was to play the DRAMA and PITY play games all day every day.

And if you think about it, how many times has your daughter presented herself as the VICTIM of her mean old mommy? What about that GAL woman? It is VERY COMMON for a psychopath to present themselves as the VICTIM when in fact, they are the ABUSER, and it is not uncommon at all for two abusers to get together in a “gasoline and fire” relationship and the “loser” of the encounter then goes on to present themselves as INNOCENT victims and to SUCK sympathy (and money if they can) from well meaning “rescuers”—and I was a well-meaning rescuer, but NO more. I’m swearing off the rescues.

Just like the deal with my neighbor, “Grandpa” and the meth-ho he has taken in. I can’t rescue him, and giving him money or gasoline is not helping him, but I don’t want anyone to starve for water, or him to be down in the holler and fall and break a leg and lay there for 3-4 days til he dies, so I keep an eye on him and keep in touch with his daughter, but no gasoline and no money. I realize he isn’t going to help himself, and it is “unfortunate” but not my responsibility, but I also have compassion on him because before he got slightly senile he was a good friend and a good neighbor, but compassion does not mean I will “enable” him. I have to set boundaries that are good for me and good for him.

I don’t think the woman poster you were dealing with Milo was the same one I took in. There have been posters here who after a period of time showed up to be “drama queens” at the very least. They usually hang around a while soaking up sympathy and suggestions for healing, while never making any “progress” but after a while they move on to some other social networking sites I imagine, or just quit coming here. I’m getting to where I can USUALLY spot this fairly early on in the “dance” but not always, some of them ARE good…the difference is though, NOW I am getting to where they don’t irritate me much any more. If any. I just mostly ignore them.

Many if not most of us when we find LF are “crazy” from the pain, frustration and insanity, so just being “crazy” when you first come to LF is not really a sign that you are not a legitimate victim…it is that remaining in the victim stage, never seeming to make any real progress, and sucking in pity/sympathy without ever giving back to others….but by that criteria, my fake victim would have been a shining star. She was apparently caring, compassionate, educated, giving, supportive etc.—she was GOOD at what she did, she was a GREAT FAKE and I suspect that she had been at one time a very successful con person, but she was on the down hill side of the mountain when I took her in, and I think she was getting desperate and starting to come unglued because she was not having the success at manipulation she had enjoyed in the past when she was younger and more attractive and had more sexual and financial “flash” to put up a front with. It did make me realize though that I can STILL BE CONNED and I need to practice what I preach and WATCH for those red flags and HONOR THEM.


Oxy ~ yep, yep, yep that is the first thing I noticed about this woman, many would give her very good suggestions to help and she would always come back with Thanks BUT. She gave thousands of reasons why whatever would not help her.

It was not the same person, this one lives far, far from you. I didn’t want to say it, but yep the professionals were apparently fooled by this woman too, often posting suggestions directly to her.

Many times when I first read someone I think that is what my daughter says about me and it wasn’t true. You just have to wait around and see more, I guess.

Ox Drover


Dr. Eric Berne’s book, “Games People Play” calls this the “Yes but…” game. The person comes up with a problem and asks for suggestions, when they are given one, they say “Yes, but, I can’t do it for X, Y or Z reasons” and then eventually you come up with another suggestion and they say “Yes, But…” again and eventually they “win” when you cannot come up with a suitable suggest that they don’t shoot down with “Yes, but…”

This woman I took in played the “yes but” game about getting a job. There was ALWAYS a reason she couldn’t get a job. Or even do a job on line. No matter how easy it was made for her to get a job there was always one reason or another she couldn’t do it. Poor woman. So pitiful. LOL

When I finally decided I’d had enough rounds of the “yes but” game and realized what she was doing, I spoke to a psychiatrist friend of mine who actually knew her, and the friend said that she agreed with me that the woman was a fake and a psychopath. Like any time you fire an employee, you don’t give them any “notice’ you escort them off the property immediately and I decided the way I would do this was to give her $150 for gasoline in case she didn’t have enough to get to the next town, but to have her leave THAT DAY. Immediately, when I told her “this isn’t working out, you need to leave today, here’s gas money, bye” she started in with the pity ploy about how I HAD ABUSED HER, DESTROYED HER TRUST, etc. (she took the money though) but I knew that not one word of what she accused me of was valid and I stood there with my empathy suspended entirely, and It FELT ODD. I actually wondered if that was the way that psychopaths feel when they look at us cry and beg them to stop hurting us. I guess it must be how they feel. Because I did not have one shred of empathy or compassion for that woman’s problems because she had brought all them on herself, she had refused to use the opportunities I had presented for her to help herself and was just trying to set herself up as a parasite on me and my sons like a tick on a dog’s ear. I don’t like being that “cold” but at the same time, I am realizing that OUR empathy can be used against us if we let it.

Actually I think that LF has less of the flamers and blogging bad apples than just about any blog I have seen. That’s why I am still here after 4+ years.


Oxy ~ without getting myself in too much trouble and trying to be diplomatic LF is “alive”, the other ……

I appreciate all the work Donna puts into this. I can’t even imagine what a task that must be and she does such an awesome job.

Ox Drover


Yep, that is a good way to put it, LF is ALIVE….responsive.

I’m like you, I can’t even imagine just how much work Donna and Terry must put into LF. I know diddly about computers and blogs and so on so it is out of my league and above my pay grade for sure!


You never know what kind of reaction you’ll get when you tell the truth…though I do understand that time constraints had to change your priorities.

The other day, I met a man and woman and told them about the spath. Before I even mentioned that he was poisoning me for years, the man said, “I have a friend whose wife was putting rat poison in his coffee for years.”

They’re everywhere!



I think it’s just fine to be happy to see the scales of justice catch up to those who are deserving of it.

That’s the thing, isn’t it? It’s one thing to be happy about an innocent person’s downfall ( Like a psychopath might appraise the situation ) … but when the unjust are put in their place- God help us, it’s a wonderful thing to see. As if for a moment, just a moment, the universe seems to be in working order. I have no qualms with that. That is how it should be. You are happy about JUSTICE. That is all.

Ox Drover

Thank you dancingnancies, I AM happy when justice is done…but all to seldom I am afraid.

Sky, I was in a hurry, and as it was I barely made it to court before the judge came in, but there are just times it isn’t worth the energy to try to tell the convoluted tale in such a manner that most “normal” people could get it. LOL I’m getting very selective about who I talk to and when and where…not that I’m trying to hide anything but most people just truly don’t (1) believe it or (2) care so I try to do my talking in areas where people MIGHT BELIEVE IT and possibly will care. It isn’t worth wasting my time, energy or breath on those that neither care nor believe.



A “white lie” that is not meant for the purpose of hurting anyone but simply not having to go into the true details that would be un-belivable to any one is okay! Sometimes it’s the only way!!!!!

Kudos to you for getting what you needed with out going into horrible truths that would only make you look like a loonie!!!

Most of all you have the courage and wisdom to know….don’t beat yourself up for this, it is totally understandable.

I know for myself that if I told the truth about the X-S in my life to most I would look like I was the crazy one!

Glad you are getting the tittles that you need.

(((hugs))) Aeylah


I don’t tell my personal details too often. I don’t think it’s anyone’s business but my own. I would’ve just walked in and said, “Hi, I lost these titles and I need to replace them please.”…paid the fees and called it a day. It’s not a “lie”. I dealt with a lot of spath related bs, at my daughters schools and so forth. I just say what I need and skip the personal details (when possible). Your story is perfectly believable to me, oxy. If it wasn’t just about un-freaken-believable, I probably wouldn’t believe you had a spath in your life! 🙂


Dear Oxy (aka Joyce),

Frankly, your story does sound fictional, although I know it’s not, but those ladies at the DMV would probably look at you like you were from Mars and hope that what you had wasn’t catchy.

Sometimes it’s nesessary to lie though I feel badly when I do it. You have to adapt when the situation calls for it.

For example, I wrote another letter to son’s therapist and the next step will be reporting him to the licensing board. I told the therapist my story and I’m sure I sounded like a nut job and I do get worked up when I tell it. He obviously doesn’t believe me. Maybe I should have toned it down a little.

But last night I went to a COSA meeting and met someone who had a similar story to mine. I’m pretty sure her first husband was a sociopath too. We belived each other and cried and hugged. It felt cathartic because we had a lot of trauma in common and there wasn’t a question of doubting our stories.

It would really take someone who has been through some WTF kind of stuff to really know that you aren’t nutty.

Some people don’t get it, most of them don’t actually. If it took me forever to understand when I was in the thick of it, how would someone else begin to understand.

It’s like when I told my mom about my daughter not wanting to be around spath because he was being sexual around her and my mom couldn’t understand. She said her dad would never do that and I could tell she was really trying to wrap her head around it, but couldn’t. We use our life experiences to make judgements, fortunately not everyone has had trauma or had the pleasure of a spath in their life so educating them is so much more of a challenge.


HI Hope….
REMAIN calm……or you know you’ll look like the ‘crazy’ ex…..especially with our life experiences we are trying to relay.
Speak few words….but make them potent.
Practice on strangers.
Do you remember me telling ya’ll about not mentioning sociopaths right off the bat when trying to enlighten someone……I found using the word Cluster B personality disorder seemed to peak interest. People like to learn on their own….and be their own guider of information…….once you peak someones interest you can go from there……you know they are willing to listen, because it was THEIR idea to want to learn more……it’s then that you can pounce the S work on them. Their ears will be open.

I hope your doing okay……it’s a long road darlen…..BUT, it has many twists and turns……YOU DRIVE THE BOAT……and MAKE all your own decisions!




I’m with you…..there was a time I wanted to yell my story from the rooftops to anyone………NOW….I no longer want this to be my identity. I listen to others stories and leave mine out……if something comes up when I feel I have to touch on it…..I just touch on it……
It evolves over time….and it blows my mind how much time heals.
3 years ago….I’d never put myself in ‘this’ place I am today!


Thanks EB! Your an inspiration!


That’s an interesting story, about the woman you tried to help. I have had that happen, in the reverse… I’ve had people who wanted to “help” me and my daughter, who’s motives for that were less than sterling. They were looking for adoring minions they could control, or had some other hidden emotional agenda. I feel wherever there’s a power imbalance, and a dependency of any kind, there’s a HUGE potential for abuse of some type or another.

There are certain friends of mine that know, they could show up at my door, (when I HAD a door LOL!), anytime night or day, and stay, no question. These are life long friends of mine, who I know are of good character. The friend who is helping us now is one example. We have been there for him in the past, and we will be friends for life no doubt.

I shy away from accepting/offering help to people I haven’t walked through fire with…

Speaking of Hell-fire…I talked to a DV advocate, (yeah, took a chance again), talked to a couple of people actually, and they feel that I should go try again, to get a restraining order on my ex… I admit I am scared to try it… they think I have enough to make it stick, yet they couldn’t believe some of the things the court let side before.

I really feel up against the wall with this. When you take any control away from a spath they tend to go ballistic.

I am going to go to the court house on Monday, and get the temp order anyway. I don’t see much point in waiting him out. 🙁

Ox Drover

Dear Hope4,

Well, you have come a LONG WAY BABY!!!! I remember back when I literally GAVE UP on you ever getting it or kicking him out. I was so frustrated (that was MY problem however) that you just couldn’t seem to “get it”—LOL I am so glad that you DID get it though, and I know you understand how hard it is to get someone else to “see” what we see, or understand what we understand….they are EVIL.

Each of us has to do it in our own time….I knew those little ladies in the DMV would never get it even if I took HOURS or days to tell them the tale…I would just be a “nut job” old woman who came in there with some crazy tale…

I am like EB though I am careful where I START a conversation with the S (or P) word because most people do think a socio or psychopath is a serial killer. I don’t even use the word pedophile most of the time but rather the simpler word of “child molester” or “child rapist.”

People seem to understand more CONCEPTs of a “bad guy” if you use the words that they are familiar with—“crook” or “con-man” or “criminal” or “bully” or “abuser” or something along that line to START WITH, then as you educate them you can say “bullies are really a kind of psychological disorder called psychopath….” and build from there describing how they have no conscience, and thus no remorse and thus, no ability to actually IMPROVE or get better, only to fake it. “I’m soooo sorrry” etc.

It IS DIFFICULT for people to believe that there are people who have NO GOOD DEEP DOWN IN THEM, and that they cannot and will not change no matter what you do. It isn’t the drugs or the drink that is the problem, it is that they are without conscience or empathy and they don’t care what effects their behaviors have on others. People have had it fed to them that “there is good in everyone” and that is just NOT true. There are some people who walk and talk and sound pretty much like everyone else on the street who DO NOT have good in them. Who have no conscience. That’s a scary thought for most people, though. They resist believing it.

When that person is someone they love, someone that gave birth to them, or to whom they gave birth, or married or had children with….it is even more difficult to accept that they are “evil” and there is nothing you can do except get away from them.

I know it was difficult for me to accept it…over and over and over with the different psychopaths in my life, the different dysfunctional people, but I couldn’t heal until I did. It is like lancing a boil, and getting the infection out, it must be done before it can heal.


Good to *see* you again…Thanks for the “Cliff Notes” you wrote for me back a ways. It was a while before I could get my jaw up off the floor. I still hurt inside when I think of your mom hiding your babies and (OMG!), you ARE her baby! And you were so sick and all!! When I read your story, I felt really hurt, then really PISSED off, than MASSIVELY INSPIRED to get OFF my ASS and become more proactive. 🙂 So I Did, and I THANK YOU, so much! You’re my Super-Hero!! <3

Ox Drover

Dear Safeguard,

You are very astute about the “power imbalance” and yes it is taken advantage of on both sides of the aisle…people who offer to help then want to control you, or people who want too mooch.

I have been an enabler in my life, I was trained from birth to be, it is part of the family legacy….but I am learning to be responsible for myself, and expect others to be responsible for themselves, and to offer help, in some cases, but as a “gift” not as a down payment on control, which is how my family used “help.”

The woman I took in I took in to give her an OPPORTUNITY to have a SAFE place (she had a small RV truck she lived in) to park so she could get a job and get back on her feet…however, she did NOT want a job, she wanted to mooch here while she scoped out her next con job. (Possibly with me) She did try a few attempts to get me to “volunteer” to give her some money to pay some storage fees she had for a place her Stuff was, but I declined and told her, “What would you do with the stuff if you had it? You live in your car and the stuff is 1500 miles away you couldn’t afford a truck to go get it, or a place to put it if you went and got it, so sorry.” She had tried that “suggestion” to a couple of other people who knew her too…didn’t work with them either.

I allowed her to use one of the bathrooms in my home as her own personal bathroom, but I did tell her she was responsible for cleaning it, she never did clean it the entire time she was here (several weeks) and she made no effort to do anything around here except show up at meal times and expect to eat what I had bought and fixed. So she wasn’t even a polite guest, but more just an entitled mooch. After someone has been here 2-3 days I would expect them to at least pick their plate up and put it in the sink, not sit and wait to be waited on like I was the maid around here. LOL


Ewww! Oxy,
Sadly my brother and his wife were just like that,( not so much now, as that gets OLD!), One time they stayed with my niece and her young family, up in Hardwick Vermont…My niece’s husband worked at Cabot Cheese, and after over staying their welcome by a month and a half, (mooching and behaving like slobs the whole “visit”,), my niece finally asked them, “WHEN are you leaving?!!” To which they replied, ” When we get our FREE CHEESE”!

True story. They were awful, but hilarious though! 🙂

Ox Drover


My home has always been an “open house” with lots of people coming and going, and my kids’ friends staying for several days etc. but at the same time, I expect people to “pitch in” and help out with meals and take out the trash if necessary, not be mooches. If someone who is a stranger comes to my house, I may offer to wait on them, but NOT FOR WEEKS….LOL




I was so occupied with my own journey that despite being here for the last few+years, and reading so many stories, I had no idea WHO the Trojan horse jackass was, and how he fit into the picture. OMG! It is unbelievable, unless one has personal experience with a spath. Those nice ladies might have called elder services on you if you had told them.

You do inspire Joyce.

Thank you for this awesome article. But especially your analogy (that you gleaned from the internment book), about gas expanding to fill a container, and each of our pain being total.


It is interesting to read the discussion about fakers that have come to Lovefraud, or other sites, and duped the bloggers. I myself felt some worry that I was giving off ‘red flags’ when I first arrived here, and it made me ‘quieter’. I felt so self-absorbed and needy, and that I gave off a narcissistic impression. I guess we all come here so wounded we are often ‘stuck’ in our own experience, and it is hard to reach out to others’. We are sometimes reactive and quick to feel hurt or insecurity.

Even so, over time I have literally been healed with the help of LF. Because, in general, this is a very real place of expanding awareness. I think ALIVE is the perfect way to describe the feeling here.



Oxy – when i went to pick up my antibiotic prescription i also asked the pharmacist what they had to rebalance electrolytes. this is not my reg pharmacy, but it was close enough to get to, so I went. He was having a talk with me about my antibiotics, (good), and i explained that i had had an allergic reaction to the the first antibiotic they had given me.

he said, you don’t need anything to re-balance your electrolytes unless you have been vomiting of had severe diarrhea. I know better. after the bs with the doctor giving me that antibiotic to begin with, i just looked the pharmacist level in the eye and said, ‘i had severe diarrhea’, and he showed me where the product was on the shelf.

and i would do it again in a flash.

these lies are done to protect ourselves and care for ourselves. no harm, no foul.


Hi Slim!!!

given the proclivities of the spath i knew, i think about it all the time on LF – she always shows up as a gang of people on sites and tells very specific sob stories. unfortunately a lot of them look like the same stuff some of us have experienced in our lives, esp. our childhoods. i don’t know if i could catch her quickly, but I use the report abuse comment thang A LOT and I warn Donna about stuff and ask her to check certain things. She might think i am a bit off, but i am going to protect myself and this blog.

Ox Drover

Dear Slim,

Well “crazy as an out house rat” is what shape I was in when I came to LF…I had been on an MSN web site owned by Sam Vaknin the self described Narcissist….and gotten TRASHED by flamers there, the managers actually of that site.

I found LF and came here and felt really nervous, and only a few days or weeks after I came here, I got FLAMED by some P that was here…she flamed both me and another blogger named Aloha. Aloha and I BOTH were devastated that we had “hurt that woman’s feelings”—but Donna kicked that woman off the blog and wrote both me and Aloha and asked us not to leave. It took me quite a while to realize that this is a PRETTY SAFE PLACE but not 100% guaranteed to be flame proof or P proof, they do come around once in a while, but Donna runs a tight ship and so it isn’t often that someone at least flames out on the blog.

There are a few sneaky ones that slip under the radar but for the most part, after a while you can pick them out.

Yes, we are pretty intense on our own pain when we come here, but as the pain diminishes we start to reach out to others and to just “be ourselves.”

The thing that was a TURNING point to me was the book “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Dr. Frankl, who wrote it about the different responses to the trauma he experienced in the Nazi camps and the trauma he witnessed in others. I thought the Pain versus gas analogy was BRILLIANT and after reading that I no longer felt guilty for feeling such intense pain because my problems were NOTHING COMPARED TO HIS experiences in the camp watching thousands of people beaten to death, starved, etc. But it VALIDATED that my intense pain was REAL and that I had a RIGHT TO FEEL THAT PAIN and not be ashamed of feeling my pain. EVERYONE has a right to feel pain for whatever loss they have suffered.

One of the things that we learned in nursing school was that “pain is whatever the patient says it is”—and with physical pain they have discovered now that how we feel and experience physical pain is partly controlled by GENETICS as well as CULTURE…who would’a thunk it? LOL So some people may have a lot of pain from a paper cut and some people have little pain from a broken leg.

So I validate the pain of others, and I validate my own pain, it is all TOTAL PAIN…but we can recover and move on past that pain, and heal.

One/Joy, yep, sometimes you just have to do what you gotta do. I did think afterward though that it was ironic that I told a lie when I feel so adamant about liars and lies. LOL

But I know it was a “harmless” “social” lie like saying “I’m sorry I can’t come to your birthday party” INSTEAD OF saying “I”m NOT sorry I won’t come to your birthday party, I wouldn’t go anywhere with you even to a dog fight if you were one of the ones fighting” LOL

Ox Drover


I think that tendency to be PROTECTIVE OF LF is in many of us, and that is why I think this blog works and has less flaming carp than any other blog I have been on or read.

I also use the “report” button (not had to so much lately) when someone comes on acting strange, or when someone posts something inappropriate. There’s a lot of stuff here to read and it would be impossible I think for Donna to be here 24.7 to read every word–she has to sleep sometimes. LOL So I think that protective instinct about “our” blog is a good thing and that there are many of us that have it and exercise oversight and if anything shows up that looks like it might flare up into a blog fight it is nipped in the bud. Donna is the ultimate responsibility though, and I think she exercises it well.


I’m feeling pretty good about me these days. I still feel the butterflies when I think of the phoney. I still miss the sex,but;NOTHING ELSE! I will never be the same after what has happen to me. There are evil people in this world.
I could make things difficult for the phoney if I chose at anytime. Pay back is a dish best served cold. Phoneys are sad sacks deserving of nothing. The first time I went to the phoneys house the smell was so bad from cat,dog,pee and crap. I could not enter. That was a sign from god to stay away. I should have listened. My question is it normal to want to just sleep with them and nothing more? The phoney is sooo nasty and low. An evil grifter in every sense.I pity the phoney. do all of you imagine paying back these devils?


sex was good at first, and I miss that, but it was also sort of mechanical and manipulitive. He was only good because he knew how to push all my buttons. “Technically proficient” is the best description.

I don’t want to sleep with him though, just because of the disease factor….ewwwww. best to stay away from something that nasty. A prostitute would be cleaner and probably just as good.

I’ve heard that revenge is a dish best served cold, so I don’t feel I’m ready to do that. Besides, this knowledge has opened up a whole new world of learning – ABOUT ME. This is so much more important to me right now because it’s something that I will benefit from and my own life will improve. And you know, they also say, “a good life, is the best revenge”. It’s so true because that is precisely what they wanted to take away from us: our good lives. They wanted to make us into them: filled with rage, envy and revenge.


One Joy,
I checked out the link about consciousness that you posted.

The subject of life after death and near death experiences seems to be in it’s infancy. I think it’s very strange to attribute consciousness to our brain and yet still believe that we have consciousness when all measurements show the brain is flat lined. It seems contradictory to me.

What seems more likely to me, is that organisms have a collective consciousness and the flat liner is simply gathering data from there, to create a “memory” of what happened while they were flatlined. It’s a morphic field.

For example, yesterday my BF bought a doodad which usually costs upwards of $75. He asked me to guess how much he paid for it at the pawn shop. I said, “$5.50”. Sure enough that is exactly what he paid. I didn’t “read his mind.” The number just popped into my head. I think the info was in the morphic field. BTW, I had no idea what the doodad was or what something like that costs. It was just a stainless steel block with lots of holes drilled into it. It’s a precision measuring device for machinists.


Today I spent time with my s current victim. He is married and unashamed to tell their sex exploits. He must be an s too because he said she was only good for sex. In no way the marrying type he claimed. He knows I slept with his sex toy and how important she was for me during that stretch in my life. He’s pretty cocky just like the S I suppose they get along so well cause they flock together those birds of a feather. Guess I’m staying away from him. Anyway I broke NC to wish the slut a happy birthday through text. No response as I have been disguarded for sure. I had emails from a strangers telling of her current exploits .
Breaking. NC brought me back to this site as I feel weird. I was invited to a birthday party being thrown for the S by her new lover tomorrow should I attend ? There is no way this herpes infected s could ever get me back but the entertainment value would be.priceless.


shame on me;
they slime us. but that doesn’t make us into them.

be happy to be discarded.

work on being a better you. They will never get that.


We are them if we treat others like they do which should be avoided at all cost.


Thank you for your comments! 🙂 You know…..for me, it makes ‘sense’ of my experiences if I can help others from what I lived! I am big on helping ourselves….because we are all we got! Nobody will pick us up and dust us off and ‘make’ it better….but us. We need to be inspired to be able to do this. ‘
I got through it by looking at others ‘stories’ in life……and there is ALWAYS someone worse off than we. And if they can do it… can I. None of us are any different, and we all have a ‘story’.

Don’t let your heart break over my or anyone elses ‘story’…..because I can now…..see the gifts it brought me. It was my time in life to dig that ditch… the hard work….sweat it out…..and learn about myself! And that I did……and if that’s what it took to get to ‘here’…..well….I wouldn’t trade it for the world! (Although I’m glad I wasn’t given a choice to trade it all in, cuz at the time I woulda!)
When my kids were gone… was HELL! BUT… most valuable lessons. Lessons of which carried me through the rest of my ‘story’ at that time. I learned self discipline, trust in myself and patience. I learned to have faith in my parenting and what I had modeled for my kids prior to that event. I was reminded of this by my support. I learned about friendships, faith and relying on others. All of these lessons came because I didn’t see I had any other choices at that moment.
The patience and self discipline taught me…..about ‘revenge best served cold’ effect……it taught me not to respond to my innate reflex’s……it taught me that I CAN get through this……and I did. I taught me how strong I was……because I didn’t see any other choice but to plow through…..

I remember vividly sitting on the edge of my bed one morning……looking at all my medications…..thinking…..Can I make it through this…..If I make it through the cancer and strokes etc…..okay…..Can I make it through this divorce…….okay. I looked outside and thought …….FUCK YOU….YOU ARE NOT GOING TO KILL ME!!!!!!
At that point, I released my fear of death. I knew my kids needed me…..I knew that ‘today’ wasn’t going to be the same ‘tomorrow’….maybe not better…..but different. I knew that my kids would figure it all out…..and I needed to divise a ‘plan’ for when they did….however long that was going to take.
Once I was okay with dying……I started living. I stood up and wasn’t affraid to fight like hell…..even if it meant dying do it. Shit….I was contemplating killing myself… who cared if cancer or a spath did it……FUCK YOU….BRING IT ON!
I call that day…..finding my ‘FUCK YOU” attitude…..(or more nicely put……Finding my adamant).

I made my apts for my specialists… my treatments…….flew to MDA by myself to do this…..and used that time to take care of myself…..research……plot and plan……and NOT GIVE UP!

From that point forward…..I changed!
There was alot of ‘From that point forwards”…….which occured. And each point I took notes…….and used my new found change.

So…….this all started in 2006….and here I am today.
It’s been going on years with spath. It’s been quiet around here……(spath wise). He called the kids in July…..they told him to fuck off and die. It made a huge impact on the eldest JR. He went back into counselling to work on things inside of him. He commented recently about the contradictions of the numerous messages spath left. He ‘gets it’.
Now, if you look at that situation……and how it promted Jr to go back to counselling…..(of which he didn’t earnestly participate when he first went) and work on Jr’s issues. That’s a gift!

I believe everything works out the way it should……And everything happens for a reason. So now…..I let it all ‘roll’. I can’t control the world……I make good decisions and show up for my own life……and whatever happens after that is for a reason.

Today……It help so much to know…..My story inspires others. That’s what I want! I want others to know…..YOU CAN ALSO WALK THROUGH THE FIRES OF HELL…..and get yourself through. Don’t look at the burns as ugly scars…..look at them as gifts……gifts that were given to you because YOU are a survivor……and you’ll always have those scars to remind you…..just how strong you are!!!!

Embrace the scars……they are gifts that brought us to ‘today’!!!!

And now it begins……….


“Many times when I first read someone I think that is what my daughter says about me and it wasn’t true. You just have to wait around and see more, I guess. ”

Is that not the truth!!!!
I do the same thing……I used to offer my empathy to the first good victim story which came around…. 🙂 But now I can relate…..from the other sides point of view…..the accused.
Now….I offer cautious empathy……
I had an attorney once who said…..there are 3 sides to every story in court. His-hers and the truth.
And we know how a spath presents their story about us……..LOL!
I do think about it when I hear someone says …..triggerwords…… like….stories about someone faking cancer. That really pisses me off! HELLLOOOOO WHO DOES THAT? But, that was one of spaths stories about me……..which segwayed into she’s mentally ill…..

Another triggerword which shuts me down is……my ex is crazy. I’ts a passeee statement which is way overused. Does crazy define them because they didn’t want to put up with your ‘cheating, lying, stealing, abuse, cheapness yadayada….whatever? Every ex seems to have the ‘crazy’ gene.

This is why I stay well away from the ‘crazy’ word.

But yeah…..I get the same thing…..when you hear someone describing just what you were accused of……It makes us think twice! 🙂



No, do not go to the birthday party!! As much as I know you want to “just to see what will happen” you will just be miserable in the end. It’s best to stay away…

Ox Drover

Shameon me,

Shame on YOU for breaking NC….NC is what gets the STINK of their lives off our skin. They are just like a big pile of shait, and if you stir it, you will get the stink on yourself!

Don’t even listen to people who talk about the X…DISTANCE YOURSELF from her—in life, in thoughts, in deeds. Get as FAR away from her and anyone like her (her friends) as you possibly can, and STAY away. Come here and read and learn more, more about what kind of person she is and what kind of person you want to be. Good luck!


EB ~

P daughter would blog about me on her myspace. She did not even have it private so it was out there for all to see. Like all of us know all too well, the stories were outrageous. According to her we sexually and physically abused her, left her alone “bleeding on the floor”. This lifelong DRAMA QUEEN knew how to spin a story. She even joined groups for abuse survivors just to steal other’s stories. While reading what she wrote enraged me, I wasn’t shocked or surprised because I KNEW what she was capable of. She is a SPATHALOGICAL LIAR (new word, thanks sky).

What really HURT were the comments people bloged back to her. The empathy people showed her. The nasty things they called ME. ME, the loving mother who had supported her in every way possible. That really HURT.

That is why I hold back for awhile, I do not want to hurt anyone like I have been hurt.

Ox Drover


The “I do not want to hurt anyone like I have been hurt” empathetic tendency for most of us here is part of what the abusers-masking-as-victims (like your daughter and like the woman who I took in) use to HOOK US. We have been hurt, so we have empathy for their stories of being abused, so we reach a hand out to them—and then they BITE IT. LOL

That’s the time we have to use the new skills in boundary setting that we have learned and our new skills in spotting INCONSISTENCIES in stories and in “saying” versus “doing.”

Whether the relationship is on line or in life, we can RESERVE JUDGMENT until we have a sufficient amount of EVIDENCE to start to see what kind of person that person presents. We can watch for the inconsistencies in the stories, and MOST OF THE TIME there will be some “red flags” crop up, even on line, that will tell us “beware.” The woman that I blogged with on LF for nearly a year and then took in, she was VERY SLICK….but I will admit that when she arrived here (crying of course) and even then when her behavior around here was some how “off” (not consistent with her stories) I was like a deer in the headlights standing there just staring, not able to believe what I was seeing.

As more and more of her self-told “life story” began to unfold though, I WROTE DOWN some notes on it (CRS don’t ya know) and then began to realize that her stories were contradictory. Each story by itself might have stood alone as a “good tale” but you can’t be in two places at once, and you can’t have kids and not have kids at the same time. Individually, I’m still not sure which of her stories were truth, part truth, or out right lies, but I eventually figured out that the woman was NOT who or what she pretended to be, what she wanted me to believe she was.

She also had a “story” about how her last “employer” had used and abused her, stolen her things and even tried to kidnap her dogs….I was never able to contact that employer but did get an indirect connection to her, and apparently the woman’s story was NOT any where near the truth…it was pretty much about like the situation I had with the woman when I started to wake up and Smell the coffee….and I have NO doubt that she went on her way from my place telling every one who would listen how I had used and abused her, beaten her, robbed her and used her as slave labor on my cotton plantation and how she had been hooked to a plow side beside the mules to plow the fields, and how I had made her fan me as I lay on my bed drinking mint juleps until I passed out drunk—at which time she made her escape by following the north star. LOL

You know, though, Milo, those people who blogged back to her with comments were in the FOG of her lies, and they had no other evidence than her LYING WORDS…they gave her TRUST without first making her earn that trust.

You know I got so upset at what my P sperm donor had written about me in his books, because it was HORRIBLE…but finally I realized that if people read this and knew him, they would not believe it, and if people read this, and knew me, they would not believe it, and if people who neither knew me or knew him read it and believed it…SO WHAT? So those words being in print doesn’t bother me any more. They have not made a difference in my life or any of my relationships.


Oxy ~

That is exactly what my dear psychologist told me. Those who know you, know it is not true, the others SO WHAT.

She went on to say – DO NOT READ HER MYSPACE, FACEBOOK OR WHATEVER ELSE. In a round about way she was saying NO CONTACT.

After finding Aftermath, then LF, I went back to her and said “I finally get it” I think she muttered, under her breath “it’s about time” LOL

Ox Drover


Yea, it is frustrating to know that they are out there spewing the drivel and lies, but there really isn’t any thing we can do about it, and in the end, it doesn’t make any difference if WE DON’T LET IT. 99.99999% of the “damage” they do to us is between our ears, and WE HAVE CONTROL over that….we can NOT LET IT BOTHER US.

I remember back when I was a kid and someone would say something bad the “answer” was , “consider the source!” How much value someone’s opinion has is based entirely on themselves….I would totally believe what my husband said was the problem with my car (he was an engineer and excellent mechanic and had nothing to gain by lying to me) but “Joe the mechanic” might not be such a good mechanic and he might be lying to me so I’d let him do an overhaul when all it needed was new spark plugs—-so CONSIDER THE SOURCE of any information — what is their level of expertise? what do they have to gain (or lose)? etc.

And sometimes, the “motive” that psychopathicly inclined individuals have may not be something that makes sense to someone who is not well acquainted with the psychopathic mind set. Like the people who invent whole groups of on-line personas and dupe others into believing them, not even for financial gain, but just for entertainment and fantasy value for themselves.

The worst one I heard about lately was a 47 year old man who was having an internet affair with a 18 year old girl and pretending to be a young soldier….and his wife found out and told the girl he was married and 47, so the girl, to get even with him, started having an online affair with a young man friend of his and rubbing the man’s nose in it, so the 47 year old man killed his friend, murdered him, and ended up going to prison….but then found out that the 18 year old “girl” he was having the affair with was REALLY an overweight and lonely 47 year old woman who used her beautiful daughter’s picture to pretend to be 18. Talk about convoluted and sick!

People can “be” anything behind a computer screen. LOL and motives for a psychopath don’t have to be anything that anyone else would find enticing. 🙂


Oxy: I used to do the same with the destruction my spath did. The very few folks I did tell about my spath experience just didn’t get it.

Even when I went for therapy months later talking to a therapist about my experience they thought I was the crazy one. Having an experience with a “sociopath” is equivalent to a “close encounter of the third kind” and those who have never experienced it will never believe you or think you’re making it up and you’re the one with the problems. I gave up on telling people. Only you folks that have lived through it know where I’m coming from.



You wrote some interesting things, above, about the people who come to LF or Aftermath – the drama queens who never seem to make it towards healing, never seem to give anything back. I am sure you’ve seen a lot. I think many of us are initially stuck in drama land after experiencing a SPATH. It’s this whole adrenalin thing that gets going. I read a much older post of yours a few days ago about how healing is a process – not an end state – I have been thinking of nothing but that post of yours. I keep waiting for that magical day that the PAIN just stops, that it’s gone. And I guess you’re telling me it ain’t ever going to come and hit me upside the head. I’m just crawling out of it, day by day, little by little.
It was a great post.

Amazing Grace

Yes, at first, I did miss the sex too, but like Skylar I realized that the sex was mechanical, the “emotion” he put into it was fake. Now when I think about it I just feel bad. Every time I had sex with him I asked myself “are you sure?” and I’d answer “yes, I think so, I think he’s a good man”. How dumb of me. I feel raped. It was all a lie. If you’re craving the sex, I’m going to suggest that it’s at the surface level only. If you think about it, it was nothing more than a pure violation of beautiful YOU.


You said something that the spaths just want to turn US into them. I really believe you are right. My spath was SO JEALOUS of me and everything about me. He wanted to hurt and torment me. He sucked me into lying with him for no good reason. You are 100% right about this.

I think it was Erin who said she didn’t want to be known for her relationship with her SPATH. Wow, do I identify with that. A person I care about and respect, I told him about my spath. He eyed me suspiciously and doesn’t see me the same way any more. I feel bad about it. So I made a bad call, and it’s my fault that I’m too trusting, too empathetic? Christ.



Sky – i think the two things you are talking about above are separate: 1) in buddhism it’s said:’ space is information’ the 5.50 number) and 2) consciousness exists in more organs that the brain. it exists in our other ‘organs’, especially our hearts.


I understand #2 but not #1 “space is information”. Can you clarify?

Ox Drover


The pain will go away, it just doesn’t do it suddenly, it is ever so slowly.

After my divorce (years and years ago) which was very traumatic, about 18 months after this traumatic divorce which left me and my two boys homeless (we lived in my truck) we had finally gotten a house, and I was refinishing an old chair I had bought in the back yard, and was using a water hose to clean off the grime and it was hot, and one of the kids walked by and I squirted him and then the other one, and the next thing you know we were all 3 rolling on the ground, in the mud, wet, fighting over the water hose to cram it down each other’s shirts and LAUGHING AND LAUGHING, and all of a sudden I REALIZED, WE WERE HAPPY! Happiness had SNEAKED up on me while I wasn’t looking. So it will “sneak up” on you while you aren’t looking. KEEP THE FAITH! KEEP ON MOVING FORWARD! (((hugs)))

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