By | December 23, 2011 134 Comments

Abuse is abuse – it is not okay

By Joyce Alexander, RNP (retired)

When I read the news sometimes I just want to cry. It seems the news is filled with hate, prejudice, evil and just plain mean stuff!

The following article about a young man who was “hazed” to death in a college band and beaten so badly that his muscles were destroyed, made me just have to stop and “take a breath” before I could continue to read such a sad story.

Expert: Autopsy of Florida A&M drum major shows badly beaten muscles

An entire group of college age young adults who would inflict such punishment on a fellow band member, a person they probably called a “friend,” is beyond belief to me. This was not some group of inner city dropped out kids on drugs who were gang members; these young people were the “flower” of our society, receiving an education at college level.

I sincerely doubt that any of these young people who pummeled their friend hard enough to destroy his muscles intended for him to die, or be so severely injured that he would be crippled, yet that is exactly what they did. They killed him. The entire group on the bus participated in manslaughter.

In light of the Penn State scandal of child abuse that was “openly rumored” around campus, this school also had “open rumors” about hazing in the band that was no “big secret.” Apparently it was not seriously addressed by the band director or the administration of the school. I can only imagine what the family of this young man feels after his death, knowing that he wanted to be accepted badly enough that he was willing to participate in such a “ritual.”

I sincerely doubt that many, if any, of the young people who participated in such a ritual were what we would likely label as “psychopathic.” But for whatever reason that can be ascribed to the behavior that led to this young man’s mutilation and torture (I can’t find other words that fit), they behaved in a way that is totally unacceptable in a civilized society.

In order to stop this kind of behavior it is going to take not only the administrations of schools, coaches, and directors of programs, but it is going to take students who will stand up and say, “I will not be a part of this kind of behavior. I will not participate.”

I think about the times that I have participated in things that were painful to me, just like this young man did, because I wanted to be accepted by the people who were pummeling me with their words or their fists. I was afraid to stand up and say, “I don’t deserve to be treated like this,” or say, “People who treat me like this are NOT my friends, because friends do not hurt each other.” I felt shamed when those I loved treated me poorly, lied to me, physically or emotionally hurt me, but I’ve decided to stand up now, to face those who try to tell me that I must be abused in order to be accepted. To face those who would abuse me, and say a resounding “NO!!!! I will not be abused.”

Let us all stand up for those who are not yet strong enough to stand up and shout “NO!” and to speak out for them that abuse is NOT OKAY!

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Ox Drover

Donna, Many people who died in the earthquakes were trapped by an arm or a leg, and the muscles started dying, and the dying muscle tissue sends out chemicals that will kill the kidneys etc., so the terrible pummeling that he got literally burst the muscle cells from the impact. It was like he rolled down a mountain side.

I noticed in the report that he was not hit in the head or anywhere that clothing would not cover the injuries so this was a deliberate attempt to cover up the injuries. I am also not sure that bare fists could do this kind of damage (that’s just my thoughts, I don’t have proof that they used weapons of some kind).

This young man was 26 years old as well, he was older than I presume most of the band members were, and he was a “big guy” not a small man. The fact that he took this pummeling, made me realize that this running the gauntlet was a “tradition” with this group, and he was not willing to stand up against it. Of course, for whatever reason his pummeling must have been worse than the “usual” version of this “beating in.” Maybe because he was bigger than the usual student, they used weapons when usually it was only fists that were used, I’m not sure and I guess no one is.

What is amazing to me though is that this “gang initiation” type of “beating into the group” which is recognized in inner city gangs who are beaten for X number of seconds as a way to show that they “can take it” was done in a college setting, in fact, was fairly well “known” to be done, and neither the students nor the “adults” in charge did anything to stop it until a young man died!

Yet, I’m not sure why I am so surprised, because I look at the things I endured from those “friends” and “family” and people who supposedly “loved” me, and I didn’t stand up and say “NO! That’s abuse. I won’t tolerate it!”

I notice in the news though, that there are various coaches, journalists, and others who are being “outed” for pedophilia since the Sandusky thing came out, and hopefully, this young man’s death will make more school administrations put a stop to this sort of thing, in sports and in fraternities, etc. so maybe at least there will be some positive come out of the negative.


It’s hard to wrap my mind around something like this. What a violent society we live in.


This week was a beautiful one… Every year the week before Christmass 3 DJs have closed themselves up in a glass house, on some square in a Belgian city… only living on smoothies and juices. They play music on request if people pay for it. It’s to help a certain red cross project they pick. This year it’s against diahrea. Before it has been malaria, mothers on the run from war, drinking water, landmines, … The beautiful thing is that the whole week kids, students, teachers, hospitals, employees, companies, state admin workers, etc, set up activities and actions with sponsoring to donate money in return for a song, and come to deliver the money at the glass house. It’s like a giant social movement and every person in this country gets involved and together, right before Christmass to make the world a better place a bit somewhere. And it’s this that makes it beautiful. Imagine several youngsters gathering 1500$ to request one song. My university gathered 43000 €. The public high schools gathered 120.000 €.

It’s the last house before they get freed from the house and the final gathered sum of money gets to be known.

I just wanted to share the link to the live streem for the last few hours (it’s in Dutch, but still etertaining)

Ox Drover

Thanks, Darwin’s mom,

there ARE good things and good people in this world as well as evil ones, and focusing on the good is a thing that we can do to raise our spirits! Especially at this time of year.Thanks for the link!


Darwinsmom, I’m sorry but I’m cracking up over here imagining DJ’s holed up in a glass house raising money for diarrhea. ha ha ha

I think human beings are manifesting their very best when they are involved in some altruistic project like this. What a really AWESOME thing to do!

Ox Drover

Star, you are right! I hadn’t thought about the “glass house” and the “diarrhea” part! LOL Well, at least they are not throwing stones!


Stargazer, it’s hilarious… people are creative with the names for their fundraising projects: This is the “shits”! They sell toilet paper. Kids make craft projects looking like faeces. Their was an acitivity called ‘buikloop’, it’s the nicer name for diarrhea… if you translate it literally, it means ‘stomach running’. So the activity were people lying on the floor (hundreds, even thousand of them) and someone else had to walk from stomach to stomach. Raising mney for each stomach she crossed that way.


Actually the square is 15 mins walk away from where I live, so I’ve been there to watch some rock artists (includig iternational ones: saw Smith and Burrows, Birdy) give a roof concert on the top of the glass house. It finishes in 2 hours. Guess where I’m going soon again 🙂

Ox, I read the article. That made me sick. I know you think there were likely few or no pathologicals in the group, but I wonder if there could be just one ring leader that calls all the shots. Maybe someone with a few minions as well within the group who are low on empathy. The reason I say this is because I cannot imagine how else…..I know about group think, yet this is just disgusting. Too disgusting. My instinct is to start interviewing the students to find out who started this–or at least who kept it going as a “tradition.” Also, this happened on a bus? Was the bus moving? Who was driving? Where were the “adults?” So many questions.

Also, this is a moment when I want to point out that FREAKS are useful in society. I have speculated this for awhile, but being a “freak” with my asocial Aspie-ism, I’ve found that group think doesn’t effect me very well. I think it’s because I am so used to going outside the mainstream in many activities, so I tend to stay on the fringe when others start getting into group think mentality. I wonder if this is the case with many whistleblowers or people who WOULD stand up and say something, or at the very least, option not to participate in this.

What can be done? This was a hard story to read, but thanks for covering it. I just think there must be a sociopath somewhere….maybe not.

Abuse is abuse. I agree. And friends don’t hurt each other. Period.


Diarrhea saved my life. Don’t knock it – it works wonders for the poisoning victim. My spath never got upset about my other illnesses. But when I told him I had chronic diarrhea from all the magnesium I had to take to relieve the muscle pain, he got very upset. “It’s not GOOD to have diarrhea all the time, you know.” he said.

Well, it was better than strychnine!

Ox Drover

Panther, hazing and various “rights of passage” that included painful or debilitating things, from starvation to the Native American “sun dance” to other kinds of running the gauntlet are nothing “new” for sure. Boot camp in the military service is a sort of “hazing” but is limited by what is allowed, or is supposed to be, though recently 8 young military men have been indicted for killing a young recruit that they targeted because he was “different.” At least that young man didn’t willingly participate in his own death however, and the drum major did willingly participate in the hazing ritual.

College fraternities are notorious for hazing rituals and when I worked at the college, though there were no fraternities at that college, there were various groups and alcohol toxicity was something that we (the adults and administration) were very aware of during certain events at the college and it was “all hands on deck” to prevent any hazing or over dozing on alcohol. Our best efforts were to keep ALL alcohol off the campus, but of course that wasn’t going to happen, but we did a pretty good job of keeping down alcohol poisonings.

BBE brought up a good point on another thread today about how contact sports, even soccer, cause brain damage and the head injuries from foot ball, boxing, extreme sports of all kinds, and yet they continue. I doubt that they will ever be “outlawed” or even if they are legally “outlawed” that they will be stopped.

A friend of mine has a son that advanced almost to the olympics in boxing, (not professionally though) and now at 21-2 he is having major brain problems, thinking problems, memory problems, etc. and it breaks my heart. He is such a sweet kid.

He was a local “hero”—I never went to see him box, because I never have approved of boxing as a “sport” but in the opinion of some that makes me a “fuddy duddy” but be that as it may, the scientific evidence that is coming out now about how brain trauma causes all kinds of problems may make at least a FEW parents stop and think before they allow their children to participate in such “sports.”

During the depression in the 1930s lots of kids boxed their way out of the ghettos and slums, and lots of kids today try to ride sports out of the ghetto into the NFL and other leagues.

The violence in the band though was totally uncalled for in every way….and every participant in that event should be brought before the law. I don’t think sending these kids to prison is the answer, but they should and I think MUST be held accountable for their behavior. To be liable for the consequences, to be financially responsible for what they did, to do community service in teaching against violence in schools and colleges as part of their consequences. To be required to stand up and say “I was part of this, and violence is NOT okay.”


True, Sky!

Vomiting and diarrhea are the body’s defense reflex to get bacterias and digested poison out as soon as possible. When I’ve eaten a wrog shrimp or something, I’ll vomit unitl there’s only gall left to spew. That’s when I’ll take a pill to stop my stomach from reflexing.

The problem in the 3rd world is that thousand children die daily because of diarrhea, because they don’t have clear drinking water. For this week’s case it’s to help villages in Nepal to get waterpumps with fresh water, build toilets, education not to use the street as a toilet and gather garbage, and medicine to stop diarrhea.

As for the article itself. I read the hazing article. I think that sanctions ought to be taken against the band, even if it’s not possible to always pinpoint the beaters in a legal way. You are right… management would have heard at least gossip of this ritual, and should have done something preventive.


Clean drinking water is the key, you are right. I think it’s a great thing those DJ’s are doing.

As far as the band goes, why not manslaughter charges? Someone died but the members of the band diluted their responsibility by doing it as a “team”. We shouldn’t allow responsibility to be diltuted “because everyone else was doing it”. People need to stop being sheep or we will never win against the spaths.


I have been prone to stomach problems from time to time. I wish I could have $100 for every time I get diarrhea. ha ha Maybe I will do a fundraiser…..LOL

However, you couldn’t pay me enough to vomit. I’d rather lie on the floor for hours and not breathe, to avoid throwing up. I can probably count on one hand all the times in my life I’ve vomited.

Ox Drover

We need to be THANKFUL that we have clean water and a roof over our heads because much of the 3rd world doesn’t have clean water, which is the basic necessity of LIFE ITSELF.

I agree that the responsibility for the “crime” should not be diluted because “everyone participated” but I do not think that prison time is the answer either. I think as much as anything the INTENTION of the persons should be taken into account, but I do not think the group or individuals should get off lightly at all.

I think the band director should be FIRED out of hand, if he did not know, he SHOULD have known, and the band itself should be disbanded as a marching band, and every member of the band that was on that bus that night and either participated in that beating or did not make any attempt to stop it should be kicked out of the college and the law should prosecute each and every member that was on the bus that night with community service and public disclosure as the consequence, but not prison time.

There may have been a psychopath or two “leading the charge” but I think it was a culture larger than just one or two psychopathic members in the band…it had apparently gone on for years.

Probably every person who participated in that hazing had themselves been hazed….but I think this particular one was more over the top than the rest of them had been, maybe because the man was larger or older than the usual band member, but whatever the “reason” (excuse) there IS NO REASON OR EXCUSE for why this went on and the “adults” did not stop it. This “gang like” behavior in college age and college educated young adults and administration can not be tolerated and must not be tolerated any more than hushing up Sandusky’s pedophila is acceptable. It is going to take a collection of people standing up and saying “NO!!!! I will not do it, and I will not allow it to be done to me!”


We also need to be thankful for RUNNING water. My first trip to Costa Rica, the water in the town shut down with no warning for hours every day. One day it shut down for 24 hours. And thanks to our old friend Murphy and his laws, it would be during that time, in the middle of the night, when I got the runs very bad without being able to flush the toilet.
(Anyone here who is trying to diet should be greatly helped by that visual – LOL)


I just thought I would check in and say a very happy Christmas and lots of love to Donna and all those who know me – especially Oxy D.

I am doing well. My angst, which some of you will know during my outpourings at Lovefraud – is now well behind me and my life has moved on in peace and I have healed from my ordeal. It may come up in conversation occasionally, but other than that, I barely think about it, it no longer has centre stage in my life and I am so pleased I chose to have no contact.

With my best wishes to you all. Beverly XX

Ox Drover

BEVVIE!!!!!!! What a wonderful present from you to me!!!!! I sure do miss your posts here on LF but I am so glad that you are doing well! Your logical and smart brain would win out I knew! It is wonderful when old friends stop by LF to say how wonderful they are doing now that the P is out of their lives! Gives hope I know to the “newbies” here who wonder if the pain will ever end! ((((huggles))))Bev!!!! and my wishes for the best Christmas and New Year that can be!!!!! Love Oxy

Ox Drover

ps to Bev,

Did you notice I have “come out of the closet” now and am publishing articles under my “real life” name now. You can contact me under Love Fraud authors. I’m no longer hiding behind the shame of the psychopaths! Joyce


Well, the link won’t work anymore… the dj’s were released and revealed the last figures of the funds raised… over 7 million euros. It was 5 million euros last year. Heck nobody had expected this. The Flemish are 7 million people, so it means at least one euro per person was donated, in a week time.

Sadly enough this was the last music for life edition. But everyone begged them to continue. They won’t as they have done since 2006 every year. But the national television agreed to take on a pulling role for next year to give people a focus to do crazy fundraising tactics.

I know it’s sentimental and feel good… but it makes me we wheep every year to witness a week of solidarity with the poorest, economic crisises and politic differences put aside, and a giant communion to gather to make a difference to people they don’t know, never will know, on silent disasters of each and everyday that never make the news.

It gives me hope, kinda like the fishhead post and message… spaths eat THAT!


Hello, fellow LFer’s. I am requesting a bit of advice. A coworker has invited my daughter and me to Christmas at her house. The problem? They live on the same street as Spathy and his family. I am NC with all of them…

Am I opening myself up to drama if I attend? I don’t want any nor would I like to spring that on her family after their gracious invitation. I don’t think the NPD grandma would risk the potential embarrassment of a confrontation in front of neighbors, but with Spathy, all bets are off.

Not sure what to do for Christmas with my daughter, and this seemed like a great idea until she started giving the address…


Ohh dear, LFMarie, what a conundrum!
Personally, I wouldn’t be going anywhere if I was likely to bump into ex spath or relatives thereof.

Perhaps you could ask if they are invited? Depends on how well you know your work colleague.
Or just graciously decline.

Stay safe.

Ox Drover

LF Marie,

I agree, I would decline and explain why, or I would go and take a taxi so my car wouldn’t be visible to the spathy X, or, if the house is close enough that there is no way you could get in and out without being seen, then I would just decline and tell the friend from work WHY. That you would love to come but you don’t dare risk him showing up and making a scene where the cops would have to be called.

An intimate Special Christmas at home with your daughter, or go out to some buffet at one of the swanky hotels. My step son and his family have a tradition— they go to a movie on Christmas day and eat at one of the swanky hotels. START NEW traditions!


So good to hear from you Oxy. I think about my good friends, especially at Christmas time and the Lovefraud bloggers were so helpful to me – and I never forget that.

And I see Oxy that you are still here supporting and that is so important. I have just had a conversation with a friend who has a romantic dilemma and I realised that being on the other side of the fence and being able to offer that balanced and real straight forward experience to others is so helpful – you really are the matriach Oxy.

Yes, I mentioned that my P troubles are far behind me and I learnt alot from the experience in a difficult way and that no contact was like weaning myself away from a bad influence. Yes, both you and I know it can be done, the pain DOES go away, good sleep returns, the mental trauma is replaced by peace. It can only end, because I made it end. For a one year relationship, it took me over 2 years to get over the worst of it, because I had health problems too. Now I think of it, I am 4 years away from that awful time and the experience has changed me alot. I have better boundaries, I say it, like I see it. I am still in contact with Mysticmud and we try and meet once a year. Mysticmud is also doing well.

I wish you Oxy a wonderful and special Christmas – as so deserved by you!!. Festive wishes also to all the Lovefraud bloggers.

PS I will pop in again soon. Lots of Love from Bev XXXXXXXXX


PS to Oxy. I thought you had an article published, I will contact you. Love from Bev (Angela) XX


Strongawoman and Ox Drover, thank you for your suggestions. I agree, safety is key. Sometimes I wonder if there is still a part of me that is hooked into the drama. Maybe so, but I’ve got that little chicky to think about and that reality drives all of my decisions these days. Motherhood really has been the best thing that has ever happened to me. Truly. I would likely have stayed in denial about the shambles of my life without that sweet little face looking up at me. It woke me up and I became willing to make the difficult decisions and painful changes… but life is getting good again 🙂

My friend kinda knows what has gone down, but she thinks he is just a drug addict. It’s hard to explain to people what he really is. I say the whole thing about lacking conscience and a sense of connection to other humans and I often get the blank stare!

I guess I’m just not feeling very confident about creating good holidays for my daughter. She is only 13 months, so she won’t be that picky. I bet if I fed her mac and cheese and blew bubbles with her in the kitchen she would be thrilled! I’m probably just being hard on myself. We are isolated and I’m working on building a safe support network. It’s hard, we live in a small community where we are the ethnic minority and everyone knows his family. But we will manage.

Happy holidays to the LF community!!!

Ox Drover

LP marie,

Yea, people don’t understand the lack of conscience thing.

If you think you can get there and enjoy yourself without him knowing about it and bursting in I would go….but BE PREPARED.

My adopted son is out of state with his biological family for the holiday, and we had our celebration before he left so I’m holding down the fort on the farm, cleaning house and rearranging furniture! Sort of a “busman’s holiday” for me! LOL

Having a big “Norman Rockwell” dinner with all my dysfunctional relatives, pretending we are a “nice normal family,” just isn’t my cup of tea. I do enjoy the memories of some previous holidays though, spent with friends in far flung states with people who genuinely loved me.

Just enjoy that baby! and never forget to take time to blow bubbles with her! Happy holidays!


LPMarie, ha! Yep def know where you’re coming from. People have looked at me a little strangely when I’ve mentioned he is disordered. I try to stick to facts rather than theories….as far as friends who don’t understand the definition of a spath are concerned. As far as my daughters are concerned, however, they see him for what he was. They saw it from the moment I met it!!!

Children are a blessing. My two are grown up now and we are all three very close.
I agree with Ox wise woman that she is. Enjoy that baby.
Enjoy your life.
Peace to you


Ox Drover and Strongawoman, (((hugs))) to you both!!!


LPMarie, if it were me, I would not risk it. I’d probably play it safe. Seems even the thought of it is causing stress, so it may not be worth the stress of looking over your shoulder. I’m 100% over my spath for a few years now. But I still would not even entertain going to a party on the street where he lived. Like Oxy said, there are some really nice Xmas brunches you and the kids would probably love. I know when I was a kid, I LOVED going out to a nice place for a holiday brunch. Good luck with your decision and Merry Xmas. 🙂

Also, you don’t owe them a detailed explanation of why you aren’t going (if you decide not to go). You can say that the invitation is really tempting and you really appreciate the offer, but you have decided to have a quiet Xmas with the kids this year. You could even invite them over for hot chocolate later or something like that if you wanted.

Ox Drover

More stuff going on at the FAMU, Gov calls for President to be placed on Admin Leave by the board….

The parents of the victim talk about the culture of abuse….


A neighbor I have been getting to know came over with some gifts for the baby and me and also an invite to Christmas with her family… They are no where near Spathy and his toxic mom, so this is what we will do tomorrow. We have a party to go to today. I’m feeling especially depressed today. I was excited about spending some time with the baby, I’m just so overwhelmed with the daily grind of single parenthood. Everything I couldn’t get to this week is still waiting for me… I guess it’s a good thing that dishes are patient!!!

Also, I felt like my friend was giving me sh*t for saying I did not have anything positive to tell my daughter about her father. She knew him and said I could tell my daughter that he was charming. She said that I had to have something to tell her about why I was involved with her father. I said “I was conned and manipulated. The relationship was a con for him!” I don’t know why I’m letting this get to me NOW, but it is. I’m still so angry that I have a daily fantasy of kicking him as hard as I can in the b*lls. Hopefully doing permanent damage. Hey, it’s just my fantasy and I don’t stay stuck there all day. I just allow myself to enjoy it once during the day.

I’m doing the right things to get on with my life and feel better. I went on a 3 mile run with the baby in the stroller today, and yet these feelings catch up with me from time to time. It’s frustrating. I just want to be the happy, carefree woman I used to be. I know she’s still in here somewhere, because I have seen her more and more these days. I think that conversation set me back a bit. Why do I need to tell my daughter anything? Can’t I just tell her that her Daddy was a douche??? J/K, but what do I tell her? I have nothing positive to say, and I don’t want to lie to her, but I also don’t want to hurt her with the reality of what he is. Have others struggled with this and how did they resolve it???

Ox Drover

Dear LP Marie,

First off, you don’t have to tell her ANYTHING TODAY!!!

Your “friend” telling you what you “should” or “must” do is BOGUS!

YOU get to decide WHAT if anything to tell your daughter WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT….you don’t have to make that decision today or tomorrow even, your child is an infant. SO later.

Worry only about the things that are IMPORTANT TODAY! Today it is important for you to heal…and yes the dishes are patient, and you need to put yourself first.

Your friend may mean well, but she is misinformed and uneducated about psychopathic creeps…so for now, how about you just tell her, “that’s a decision I will make at the time it is appropriate, I don’t have to make that decision right now.”

Your daughter will want to know something about him in time, but right now you have the luxury of TIME being on your side.

Enjoy the holidays and you will have some ups and downs, that’s what the healing road is, lots of ups and lots of downs and you will eventually find that person you were, and actually, BETTER, wiser, less likely to be conned by another douche bag! So you have a Merry Christmas and enjoy your baby! (((hugs)))) and God bless.


Oxy is much kinder about your “friend” than I am. Maybe b/c I had such a “friend” and there was a big blowup when she kept seeing HIS side. I didn’t understand why. But I did come to understand that someone who invalidated ME and my realization that I’d been defrauded and conned by my husband was NOT being a supportive friend and had some other agenda. Your “friend” does not need to know about psychopaths in order to be loyal to YOU. And a “Friend” who is unable to be loyal to you but is Looking out for HIM? is NOT being a friend to YOU. At this time, YOU need friends, you don’t need someone ADDING to your pain.



Lots of people say you shouldn’t talk badly to your kids about their father. They say that the kids will eventually see it for themselves.

I disagree.

My exspath’s mom never said a word to her 6 boys about the things that her ex did. She treated him with kindness and respect after their divorce. She only said good things. She never told them about his serial cheating or that he sat in an easy chair for hours while her baby (my ex-spath) screamed in pain from spinal meningitis. He refused to take him to the doctor. She never told them that her parasitic father-in-law verbally and emotionally abused her while her husband did nothing. She only told ME this stuff in the last year of her life, after I told her that her son was sick in the head (I still didn’t know what a spath was, at that point)

When I met spath he spoke of his father’s goodness and his mother’s selfishness. I think he truly believed these things. He hated his mom for leaving his dad. He had no idea what she went through – except for the father-in-law’s verbal abuse, he actually confirmed that. I don’t know if it would have made much difference in my spath’s life, but it might have.

It took 25 years with a spath and the age of 43 before I saw my parents for what they are. Nobody told me they were abnormal so I thought they were normal. I think it’s too bad that my judgement was so skewed about what normal is because of them and that’s how I ended up with a spath.

I think that the truth is so important. Kids can’t always see clearly what is going on and what they think is true, shapes their perspectives on life.

Whatever you decide to tell your daughter, just make sure it’s true.

Ox Drover


As the child of a psychopath, and as the parent of a psychopath, I can see both sides of the story about what you should tell your daughter.

I knew that my P-sperm donor (I don’t call him a “father” because you have to earn that title by BEING a father, he only donated sperm, he wasn’t a father) had been married several times (the total was 7 I think) and I knew that he lead a “different” style life than his physician parents. I didn’t know though that he was abusive, wife beating, murdering, con-man, thief and totally without a moral compass.

I was curious about him, his life was “exciting” by the standards of a little girl from the country….flying airplanes and international travel, driving expensive cars and “living high.” As a teenager I wanted to find out about this man. Though I knew that neither his family nor mine approved of him, I went to live with him to get to know him. Maybe if I had known more I might have avoided the trauma I experienced at his hands.

I do think you should tell your daughter the truth, but I can’t tell you how to phrase it, but she should be taught about people who are not reliable, who are not honest, who are abusive, you are just plain mean….telling her anything EXCEPT THE TRUTH is going to leave her wanting to trust him if and when he shows up in her life. If you can keep her totally away from him, I advise that. A child deserves to be loved and nurtured—preferably by two nurturing parents, but one good parent is much better than having a psychopath in her life as well.

God bless you and your daughter!


Oh crap. he’s back.
He sent me two more emails in the past week, but they had gone to my “stuff” folder. I just saw them.

He’s not going to stop. He wants something.

Hi Skylar,
I loved eating dinner with you, it was I think the most rewarding moment in my day.
Do you remember how we couldn’t possibly eat without each other. When I was hungry or when you were hungry we would call each other, there was no other way to eat. I miss that.
Remember when we would eat at the unicorn restaurant, and how we would rush down there. We had that funny little thing we used to do, you would be very careful to leave your chunks of meat while you ate so that the and of your pie you would have more meat than I, and then I would say, that’s not fair you have more chunks than I’ve got.
Sometimes you would give me some of your surplus meat at the end, those dumb little games, but I loved them.

Hello Skylar
Do you remember the day you stop by the apartment, I think it was at noon.
Anyway you were dressed in your office close, no one had legs like you.
I believe we had just acquired a new motocross bike and you wanted to try it out, remember the picture I took.
What a special moment, you might think it’s because you looked so sexy wearing a skirt sitting on a motocross bike, but that was just the surface, there was for me a much deeper revelation a magical joy reminding me of how special
you were. I loved that.


oh f*** sky – the first one is a memoir of poisoning you.

and he wants a f***

Ox Drover

I’m sorry, Sky, what a “Merry Christmas” present—a reminder of how “special you were” (((hugs))))


Thanks One,
he actually wasn’t poisoning me yet because we ate in restaurants all the time – I paid. That’s why he loved it so much. The poisoning started later.

But he did think I was special – an especially stupid teenager with lots of money.

thank ((you)), he has finished ruining my christmas.
You know, if it weren’t for the fact that my BF told me that spath was having sex with 2 12-year old girls, I might have believed that he actually cared for me at one point. But I remember spath talking about the 12 year old indian girls and I was only 18 at the time. He said, “I’m sad because the two 12 year old indian girls who used to come talk to me, won’t talk to me anymore. I think they’re mad at me.”

My brain should have said WTF? I guess they were special too.


Sky ~ I am so sorry that the thing has raised it’s ugly head and just won’t go back in his hole. Stay strong. I just had to write this before Grand gets up and starts tearing into gifts.

Because of people like you, Oxy, Katy, Panther and many others here on LF I was able to come through the “Christmas visit” with a new set of eyes. You wrote something to Tami about spaths being “empty”, never being able to fill themselves with enough attention. That is just what I saw in the P daughter last night, an empty shell of an individual, desperately trying to fill herself with attention and failing miserably.

I could look around and see that the life she had been telling me about for the past year was nothing more than fabricated lies. Without me saying a word, she knew that I knew. It didn’t even bother me to gray rock, it came naturally.

When we got home, I could not even put into words how I felt, almost a type of pity, I guess. Not the kind you have when you fall for a pity ploy, just a feeling of what a terrible waste, what a terrible waste. Almost like I was embarassed for her.

Grand said he was glad we went and glad to go HOME to our house. We sang Christmas songs all the way home and looked at the lights. Today we will have a REAL Christmas. She will be seeking attention from people other than us.

Thank you, you can’t imagine how much I mean that. Sky, you are SPECIAL and he will never know that.

Merry Christmas all my dear, dear friends.


Oh Sky, why do you allow this? Why not just close the email account? He keeps renting space in your mind, which means you cannot be completely free. And as long as he has a means to get to you, he probably will. Do you really want to stay connected to him for the rest of your life?

I had a bit of a toxic Xmas myself. I had a second date with a guy I’ve known for a few months. He took me out last weekend and we had a really good time. So I cooked for him yesterday. He came over bearing a beautiful orchid. Then he promptly told me very nonchalantly how he was talking with a womanfriend at work and telling her how he can’t meet any women. He doesn’t understand why – he’s attractive and has his life together, but he can’t get a lot of dates…. I stood there with a stunned look and (sarcastically) asked him if he wants me to set him up with my girlfriends? Then after we ate I told him it hurt my feelings when he said that and asked why he said that to me. It all went downhill from there. He accused me of being too sensitive and proceeded to list all of my faults, to which I responded, “Well if you don’t like me, why are you here?” And then I asked him to leave. I feel really toxic after the interaction and hurt from his comments. It’s been a really long time since I ended a conversation with “f*ck you”. It’s not really my style.

I try so hard not to hate men. Really I do.

Merry Xmas, everyone!


(((((Star,)))) sometimes it’s the only way.


Hello All,
I am sad for those experiencing a hurtful Christmas. I hope you end the day doing a loving and honoring thing for yourself.

I am sad for SKY. Her words of NC NC NC have been SO valuable to help me separate my spath and discern his behaviors from MY behaviors. When I was able to ID and CHOOSE my behaviors, I stopped reacting, and starting chosing my response. I wish I could contact Skylar and repeat her words back to her, SKY…. go NC NC NC. He can’t ruin your Christmas without your permission.

I am sorry your date did not go well. I am older and as such, those type of holiday dates are ENORMOUS pressure on a guy, never mind a jerky guy. Christmas was your second date? And You cooked? Wow. That’s moving things VERY fast. Maybe, and it’s a big MAYBE, he was setting a clumsy boundry, that he wasn’t ready for the seriousness such a date and day would imply? He did stick his foot in his mouth, but to me, he sounds nervous and defensive. Guess I am used to men saying stupid stuff that I usually say something smarty back, like “yeah, I hear Santa has the same problem. Lots of women sit on his lap but he can’t get to second base.”

Or maybe my perspective is all wrong…. that in a dif generation, cooking for a man on Christmas doesn’t mean what it does to my generation??

In either way, I am so sad for your Christmas and pray that you choose to end your day with magic.

All my best,

Ox Drover

Stargazer, I actually belly laughed at the guy—maybe he has aspergers or something….what a JERK! I’m sorry your feelings were hurt, but I think the “Fark you! Goodbye” was the appropriate response! LOL

I liked your comeback to him “do you want me to fix you up with my girlfriends?” LOL Good comment! I would have thought about it today, not on the spot!

You know what the jerk was—a JERK, TOTAL AND COMPLETE–so at least you didn’t waste any more expectations and time on this creep! You won that round, he showed his real spots early on!!!!


Hurray for you! You got through Christmas Eve with her and she didn’t slime you! That’s a breakthrough milestone.

I don’t know how I first came to realize that they had the emptiness, but later, I was reading a book about Borderline PD and that is exactly what BPD’s describe. There is an overlap of symptoms in the personality disorders. And yes, I understand the pity – it’s more like sorrow, because you’ve accepted that there is nothing you can do – the only purpose in their life is as an example to others of how not to be.

With my ex-spath, I feel sorrow too. I know that he really does miss me: he misses hating me and sabotaging my life. It’s pathetic. What kind of person would want their life to revolve around hating someone who only loved them?

It’s great that you are modeling gray rock for Grand. He is observing and learning without you having to say a word.

I’ve always known that he would never be finished with me until one of us is gone. This man has the most extraordinary will power of anyone you’ll ever meet. He will hold a grudge until death. He told his mom, when he was 12, “I will hate you until the day I die.” 45 years later, h does. His hatred of me is derived from repressing his hate for his mom. I’ve read that being a spath comes from suppressing all feeling and living through will power alone. I can attest to that, from observing Spath. He is the most willful person you can imagine. And he prides himself on that will power. The problem is, that he has usurped God’s will, for himself and consequently aligned himself with Lucifer who did the same thing. If you don’t believe in God and Lucifer, it works as a metaphor too.

Anyway, my point is that he will never let go and I know this. So I’d rather be aware of the ebb and flow of his hatred, than be caught unawares.

I would not have been offended by your date because I lack boundaries. I would have felt sorry for him. But your gut instinct was right on IMO. He was working a bizarre form of the pity ploy. He may not be a spath, but he was working an angle because of issues he has. Reminds me of Stephen Glass, “Are you mad at me?”

My advice has always been grey rock, not NC. Gray rock means to show them no emotion. NC follows naturally because they slither away from not being allowed to feed.

The way I got rid of him before, was by unemotionally pointing out to him that he is a spath and that his behaviors prove it. He hated having his mask ripped off repeatedly. He must be hoping I’ve forgotten. People do forget, with time. But I keep the recordings and the emails to make sure that I never will be vulnerable to his lies again. This time I will try straight NC – we’ll see what happens.

Interesting item: Spath either doesn’t remember correctly or he is testing to see if he can rewrite history (all spaths rewrite history). He didn’t take the picture of me on the motocross bike. A guy walking by with a 35mm film camera took it and later came by with it. Also, the restaurant where we fought over the meat was not the Unicorn, it was Charlie’s and the meat was in a pepper pot soup, not a meat pie.


Oxy, thanks, I needed that perspective! After the shock has worn off, I’m doing a little better. The rejection aspect of it triggered me into something from my past, so I’ve been processing that a little this morning and feeling better. I’m kind of laughing about it now. Wasn’t funny at the time. He’s a latin guy and seems like the type who wants to be in charge of a woman. Totally cured my fascination with latin men. LOL

Katy, being Jewish, I am not really into Xmas, so it wasn’t a big deal to have him over yesterday – we just happened to both be free that day. I don’t know what meaning it had for him, but if it was meaningful, he sure didn’t act like it. We’d actually spent a bit of time together, reading in Spanish, and doing things, but it never had a romantic overtone until recently. That’s why I considered it the second “date”. Technically, we’ve been dating on and off since summer.

You are probably right in that he was saying that out of some kind of defensiveness, but it really rubbed me the wrong way. He asked me after that if I had any trouble meeting men. (Not sure again why he would ask me that….lol). Know what I said? I was very honest. I said, “No, I have a lot of guys interested in me, but none of them really get my attention.”

Hugs to all, and thanks for the responses, everyone.

P.S. Is it too late to become a lesbian?


Sky, your relationship with your spath reminds me of War of the Roses. Did you ever see that movie? I only wish that you did not have to lay eyes on his drivel. If it helps you in some way, then it’s good I guess. But there is a price, and I’m sorry you have to pay it, even as strong a person as you are. It’s unfortunate you have to have him in your life forever. You think that just being on the receiving end of his emails and never responding will keep him at a safe distance? Don’t you think he will want to up the ante at some point?

So you would honestly feel sorry for a guy you were dating who said to you, “Gee, I can’t seem to meet any women.” ?? I wanted to smack him. All the guys I could have spent time with, I wasted it on this a**hole.

Seriously, is there some way to turn myself into a lesbian?

Ox Drover


Whatever the reason, cultural or whatever, it doesn’t matter, the guy was a JERK—and the PROBLEM IS HIS, not yours! That’s the thing we must keep foremost in our minds is when someone else acts like a jerk, it does NOT mean that we are responsible for it, or that we some how don’t meet the criteria or that we caused it.

We need to put the BLAME where it belongs. ON THEM!

I think your “issues” are about “rejection” and maybe go back to childhood or teenage-hood, because the thing with the neighbor “boy” threw you into a spin and I think you are making progress with it because this one I think you are working through faster and better! So give yourself a HIGH FIVE AND A TOWANDA!!! And don’t worry about becoming a lesbian, just be a GREAT STARGAZER!!!!!

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