By | February 1, 2010 97 Comments

LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: How should I “be” around my ex?

In February 1999, my sociopathic ex-husband, James Montgomery, was finished with me. I had no more money, no more credit and no more earning capacity, because my business was ruined. So Montgomery arranged for me to find out that he’d had a child with another woman during our marriage. With this, I left, as I’m sure he expected.

Oh, he made a few attempts to reel me back in. “It’s not what you think,” he said. “Let me explain.” I didn’t. I kept driving.

I never saw him again. And now, after hearing so many of your stories about the sociopaths who won’t go away, I realize how lucky I was. I didn’t have a child with him. I didn’t have to attempt to co-parent with a sociopath, while the sociopath tried to turn the children against me.

My heart breaks for all of you in this unwinnable situation, stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Not long ago, I heard from a woman who is in this position.  We’ll call her “Marsha.” Marsha was married for 16 years to a guy who she now knows is a sociopath. They’ve been divorced for two years. They have five kids—two teenagers, three younger. Her ex has regular visitation times when he’s supposed to pick up the kids, although he hasn’t shown up for his Saturday afternoon time in months.

Marsha sometimes sees her ex at events for the kids, which is uncomfortable for her. She writes:

The last one was particularly upsetting for me, as he came over to my mom and gave her a hug, asked her how she was, and appeared to be very moved to see her.  I know it is all bs, but the cognitive dissonance it creates…

How should I “be” around my ex?  Do I speak in a friendly tone, similar to the way he is speaking to me, do I keep everything monotone, do I try to avoid speaking to him altogether, or is there some other option?

I don’t know how to advise Marsha. So, Lovefraud readers, especially those of you who are coping with similar situations, what do you suggest?

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Quantum Solace

How do I cope? I’m not around the psycho. Ever! Period.

In the particular case of the monster in my life, he uses every opportunity to benefit from it, to create drama and to manipulate the situation into something it is not. I have moved 1,000 miles away but recently found out that even that and 11 years after the divorce isn’t enough for this bastard.


It is very difficult to manage when there are kids involved, but I think she should say only “Hi” and “By” when around him and not try to play his hypocrite games. In my case I just stop the talking all together not even “hi” or “by”, but we have no kids and nothing to connect us anymore. They’re “chameleons” they work hard to hide their true persona, and look good. She just needs to be herself.


I would recommend putting on a “mask” around your ex at all times in front of the kids–be courteous but slightly distant; do not discuss the children at all; limit conversation to a minimum. Do not frown or make a face; just have a neutral expression of slight smile if possible, for your kid’s sake.

As for how to act when your ex does a show of B.S. in front of your mom, children and/or friends? Well, in front of the children, follow the advice above. They will know the truth in their own way. But for now courtesy and distance is most prudent IMHO.

As for your mother, does your mother not know the history? Is she not your ally? If not, then she needs to be judiciously educated in what happened and why your ex is not to be trusted, hugged, or engaged with. Work on your mom, and once she has become more ally, ask her to treat your ex the same way you treat your ex. She should not allow him to kiss and/or hug her in any way. If he tries to coerce her or you into hugging….well, you both need to be prepared in a neutral way and make that impossible.

As for your close friends, follow the same advice as for your mom. They need to know enough about the situation to be your allies.

As for friends of friends and the wider community, it’s best to be distant and polite in front of this group. It is unrealistic for them to be your close allies, and best just to be a neutral as possible in a social setting. Good luck.

These principles have worked for me for 8 years. Even if I am angry I do not show it in public and I do not show it to my ex as it “feeds the beast.” I handle my anger with my ex by talking it out with my allies or with myself.

My child knows that her father is “not quite right” in some ways, but she is able to have a relationship with him that is at least superficially rewarding for her. When he tries to put her in the middle of a fight by canceling appointments, threatening to move, I shift into neutral and tell him to go ahead and cancel, or go ahead and move, it’s fine. It never outwardly bothers me when he cancels. Sometimes I’m steamed, but I blow off the steam on my own.

Over time I feel my time with my child has become mroe and more precious and I truly don’t care any more whether my ex cancels as he often does. It is a small price to pay for more time with my child

Maybe I’ve been fortunate, but I also know that by avoiding any verbal fights with my ex in recent years it has helped me to move on emotionally and has forced him to look for others to tangle with. Anyway, I hope this is helpful.


I think this is an extremely important question, because it could mean the difference between REALLY being able to let go and being manipulated for the rest of your life!

I was fortunate. MUCH TO HIS DISPAIR, I couldn’t have any more kids when he met, and even though we lived together we never got married. So when I threw him out there were no significant ties left to bind us together.

Needless to say, he tried to find every reason to keep us connected. We were working on a project together for my job, so I couldn’t get out of that, but what I did IMMEDIATELY was speak with my boss and our partners, warn them about the type of person he was, and insisted that they would have to be his contacts until the project was over. I also fixed it so that he could no longer contact me. He was livid, but since he wanted to finish the project and get paid, he had no chocie.

I was tempted on a few occassions to respond to a few attempts by him to connect, (after he read my book at but I was able to resist without slipping up, not even once, and that pretty much forced him to go away completely.

Because these monsters are so manipulative, I would suggest that you be as neutral as you can with them. Keep in mind that EVERYTHING about him/her is a lie. Be suspicious of EVERYTHING they say. Don’ fall for ANY of it! If you have kids together, you would have to communicate at some point, but do not engage in any long conversations. Be direct and to the point, and do not let on that you are moved by anything he tells you.

For those of you who believe in the power of prayer, I’d also suggest that you ask God to help you discern the difference between a lie and the truth, not just with your ex but with people you come in contact every day. Trust me, it works!! After I started to pray, every lie he ever told me was revealed!


I have two sons, the youngest (4) with my ex sociopath. For most of the past three years, I tried to be myself…kind, pleasant, friendly. And, for most of the past three years, I’ve had trouble letting go of the PTSD and frequently found myself angry with myself as I felt I kept setting myself up for more manipulation. Or, even worse, that he was using my good character to allow him to manipulate our son’s perceptions of him and our relationship.

For the past three months, I have not spoke with him directly. My very large (6′, 230lb) 16 year old son answers the door to receive his brother and doesn’t allow the S into our home. He believes the S uses his little brother to gain access to me, so it was his idea for him to field the exchanges. He’s grown quite protective and has a knack for seeing his ex-step-father for what he is.

Since I have stopped speaking with the S directly, all necessary correspondence takes place via email or text, I have felt much more calm and safe. However, my S hasn’t appreciated the change and has managed to create a scenario in which not speaking to him is not an option. He has put our son in physical danger by leaving him in the car unattended, attempted to manipulate me by sending me falsified drug tests (he’s been ordered to monthly, random, tests but the court doesn’t follow up) and showing our son violent PG-13 movies, the most recent of which the move 9; hich I discovered when my recently turned 4 son had some interesting perceptions and questions to share about death.

Since none of the above is acceptable but engaging him directly would only reinforce his control of the situation and desired outcome, I opted to get my attorney involved. So, off we go to court, again! I’ll keep you posted.

All this being said, with a Sociopath, always expect to give up something to gain something. It’s up to you, and certainly what you think will have the best outcome for your kids, that determines the optimal approach to take when dealing with the S. There is no ideal way to deal with Sociopaths as it pertains to kids. Just be sure to do as little as possible in their favor, while still maintaining what you need to for yourself and your kids.

Good luck! It’s a hard balance to find and maintain.




I have three children with my ex-P. She was fully aware of my love for and dedication to my children and that I would do anything to keep them out of our differences. I even took a licking financially in our divorce to avoid a hearing and keep the kids out of it.

During our separation and for a short while post-divorce she’d convince me to do things I didn’t wish to do, “for the sake of the children”, such has hugging her goodbye when we said goodbye in front of the children. The manipulation technique of “for the sake of the children” was always used to keep me hooked in, and she still attempts this. When I broke free it entailed strongly establishing and enforcing personal boundaries. These people do not recognize nor respect any types of boundaries. She didn’t like this, and to this day still doesn’t.

She moved far away for a man, sought custody and lost to the extent that my children live primarily with me (still joint custody) and she has very liberal visitation, flying in to see the children or them flying to see her almost twice monthly on average, and they spend summers with her. So, she continues to be very much involved, but not so much with regards to doing the daily grind of homework, shuttling to sports and activities, disciplining, etc. My wife and I do all the real work. She is truly the Disneyland Mom, extremely overindulgent and not enforcing rules or discipline. They lay around all summer at her home with custom pool, playhouse and sport court, playing videogames and eating anything they wish from the kitchen all day long. No rules, little supervision. This creates huge issues and conflict when the children are returned to me and my wife.

She has convinced everyone, except those who know better, that I am angry and hostile and didn’t agree to move with her because I don’t wish to be controlled by her. Duh!!! Maybe I was just tired of moving for her career, we are now divorced so why would I move again? Why is that so bad when dealing with a manipulative, sociopathic ex? Those of us involved with P’s need a clean break and have the right to demand it.

Since we have kids, we have to interact. I try to keep communication limited to written emails and text and document everything. She plays games continuously when it comes to the kids’ exchange times, dates and place and kids’ financial issues. I stay in the house when she picks up and drops off the kids, NO CONTACT. However, being that she visits frequently, we cross paths at sporting and other events. I will acknowledge her and allow interaction limited to children’s issues, schedules, etc. that are pertinent while she is in town and with the kids. But, I will not engage in “conversation”. That’s the set up, to manipulate and get you to commit to something you are not comfortable with, because they know they can manipulate us if given the opportunity. My line” “I’ll think about it and get back to you”, then follow up in writing. Still, best bet is not to converse.

She puts on a huge act of charm, affection when anyone sees her with the children. Again, over the top and an act for others to see. It is all about appearances for these P’s, keeping the façade up.

Advice ”“ except when he is present, all communication in writing. When he is present, keep a game face on, don’t look angry or perturbed, they feed on that. Ignore as much as possible, and limit any dialogue. Otherwise, stick to the No Contact rule.

Quantum Solace


I just read your post and your situation sounds just like mine. I’ve had to go a step further and actually stop contact with my own children. I have one with me now but there’s no contact with the other one. Still, he manages to manipulate the situation to death. We’re back in court for the third time. Lawyers and all, it’s not looking any better than the first time. BTW, giving up stuff has got me into more of a mess. Seems like the more I give, the more he wants. In my particular case, I’ve always found it better to corner him, only when his back is against the wall, does he seem amenable to negotiate.

Will the torture ever end?


Duped, I totally agree with the following statement that you made.

“All this being said, with a Sociopath, always expect to give up something to gain something.” They always have to have something. Lately, I’m in a ZERO TOLERANCE zone when it comes to negotiating, though. I like it here; think maybe I’ll stay here for awhile.

The ONLY conversation I have with my ex is, when only absolutely necessary, by text when it concerns our son.
I learned the hard way, after he first left, that if I let my anger, irritation or anything close to those show, he got off on that. NOPE, I said to myself, that’s just more power for him.

I changed that to a complete monotone voice. Now, it’s down to just texts and even those have faded lately because my son is coming out and saying he just doesn’t want to spend time with his dad. This is his safety zone and the more comfortable he is here, the less he wants to be around him. He’s also coming out with some things I never knew before; when he was just 4(can’t believe he remembers this so clearly!), his father took him to a drug house and LEFT HIM ALONE for several minutes while he went in to get his stuff. He also had a habit of watching porno and my son saw this on more than one occasion. He would always flip the channel, but who would have that on with a child in the house in the first place? Idiot.

I am now going to go for supervised visitation because I know him and he will push for visitation. Well, won’t he be surprised!!!

AKABob, Mine pulled the same thing for a long time. Insisting on hugging me in front of our son, trying to get me to do just about anything “for the sake of our son”. It was his favorite game; his way to get what he wanted. You’re right, it’s just a game. As long as WE know that, they can’t play it!

It will end, honey. Promise! I had some bad days and wondered the same thing, but I truly believe what we deal with today will help us heal tomorrow(Thank you, Kathleen!)

Good topic! Hugs to all!


I try not to “give” at all. I have it in my mind that if I concede on something, I’ll get something in return. Sometimes you just have to to get something you really want or need in return. The reality is nothing changes. Giving in to something just opens the door, you give an inch and they’ll keep taking. Try not to set precedents, they’ll use precedents over and over. My wife reminds me all the time, don’t be nice, don’t give, she’ll just take advantage and you’ll get nothing in return (unless they benefit).


When I stated you must give to get, I’m not suggesting negotiations with a Sociopath. You’ll NEVER win. The thing is, they’ll settle for nothing less then you giving up something, directly or most likely indirectly.

The point being, if you confront, you WILL give up some inner peace…the degree of which depends upon you and the tactic they use to upset you. Unfortunately, when they have contact with the children, they have access to mess with that which you cherish most.

I agree with AKA Bob’s advice ”“ “except when he is present, all communication in writing. When he is present, keep a game face on, don’t look angry or perturbed, they feed on that. Ignore as much as possible, and limit any dialogue. Otherwise, stick to the No Contact rule. ”

If you can get away with THAT much without some form of aggressive or passive aggressive counter from your S, consider yourself fortunate!


I have one older child from my first marriage to a S and two younger children from my second marriage to, yes, another S (I was a slow learner). Both these S’s formed an alliance shortly after my second marriage breakdown in an attempt to “break” me so I know all about how difficult it is to conduct oneself in the face of manipulation, button-pushing and outright lies.

The S’s I had to deal with used every single nuance, frown, sharp word, etc.that I gave them to their advantage in their attempt to remove our children from my care (they hate paying their court-ordered child support but prior to that they gave a rat’s ass about the children, their visitation with them or their well-being). When I finally learned to be as neutral and unemotional as possible, they outright lied about me doing/saying things I hadn’t and use each others testimony as “proof” that I’d done as they said.

I learned this the hard way that every defense I gave my ex-S’s was a tool they would use to sharpen their lies and fill in the “gaps” of their story for the judge. Ultimately, it didn’t work for them to take the children away but they do have generous access (even the second one, who sexually assaulted our toddler daughter). But that was simply because their history had been to neglect the children up until they were court-ordered to pay child support. It was fairly obvious what the underlying motivation for their court action against me was so in that way, I was extremely lucky.

In a nutshell: If you are not a poker player, I strongly suggest you learn how to be one now.

Give away NOTHING about your emotional state. Be neutral, no matter what.

Give away NOTHING about your finances, your personal life, your work, etc. No small talk.

Accept and come to peace with the fact that virtually nobody else understands the ex-S like you do and you will probably never be able to fully convince everybody (including family members) to shun him the way you have.

Remind yourself when you do have to make contact with your ex-S that ANY information you share with him about you is a tool he will use AGAINST you, if he can.

No Contact is not an option when you co-parent with a S, so the next best thing is REDUCED Contact. Have a third party at exchanges to protect yourself from the inevitable slander and/or manipulations, communicate ONLY what you need to through e-mail (not phone or personal meetings) and do not respond to anything at all of a personal nature.

The ex-S considers your children “tools.” He will encourage your children to talk about you and use the information to his advantage to 1) get a reaction from you and 2) use his knowledge to “poison” your children against you.

Do NOT react emotionally in front of your children. This is exactly the response your ex-S is hoping for when your children report back to him. And he will use that emotional reaction to further “justify” his poisoning of you to them (and anyone else).

If you don’t react emotionally, he’ll probably lie anyway (like my ex-S’s did) BUT the lies will become incongruent with reality and your children will eventually clue in that what their father says about you just doesn’t make sense. It will take time and patience on your part to get there, though, and faith in your children that they will eventually understand.

My last piece of advice? TEACH your children to recognize Sociopathy/NPD. You don’t have to use your ex-S as a direct example (and it’s probably better not to otherwise it will look like you’re the one doing the poisoning) but when the opportunity presents itself (ie – a lie they’ve been told by their father about you), calmly and rationally explain it isn’t true and ask them why they think their father would lie about you. Get them to think critically. The only way our world is ever going to get better is when more people recognize and understand (if that’s even possible with these creatures) Sociopathy/NPD. Give your children the TOOLS they need to protect themselves from these predators in the future because I can GUARANTEE he’s training them to accept that kind of behaviour (otherwise he’d be “outed”).

I hope this helps you!


AKA Bob: I didn’t see your last post.

You’re BANG ON! That is a major difficulty in dealing with these critters as a co-parent – they don’t respond to the normal social rules of give-and-take.

As a parent, it’s horribly difficult to work around this because being ultra-rigid and not giving an inch (because they’ll take a mile and then some) comes across like you’re the one with the problem, not the S.

As a parent dealing with a S, though, it’s mandatory and well worth the risk of looking like a hard-ass rather than giving up that all-important source of Supply they’re looking for.


Hi everyone:

Ive been thinking…AGAIN :P…about the day our NC began. This was precipitated by a demand that I apologize to my ex for ‘offending’ him after he ‘just realized’ I had accused him of stealing from me. These demands went on for about 3 days and with each phone call where I refused to apologize he got increasingly angry and upped his ante from ‘you’ve hurt my feelings and I want an apology’ to “are you ready to apologize to me yet’ to ‘im gonna assume youre not ready to apologize to me and that we are not talking’.

On the 3rd day of his badgering over what I KNOW happened, and after I didnt call him all that day because I couldnt take it any longer, he left me a message. I had deleted his mother from a facebook account as a friend because I knew he was ‘creeping’ on my page through his moms account. His message was pitiful sounding…as if he were really ‘hurt’ over my insensativity and insinuations that HE would STEAL from ME! He left the message saying ‘Im gonna assume we are not talking because you’re not ready to apologize and you’ve deleted my mom as a friend from facebook. When you’re ready to apologize, Ill be here but until then I guess we wont talk’. We havent.

Heres my question…he has made NO attempts at contacting me for ANYTHING. It will be 3 months tomorrow of NC with him. I have a ‘feeling’ he will be contacting me…I dont know why, I just do. After reading more and more and more, I dont really know what to think though. Again, his belongings are here still as I certainly havent contacted him, however, it just seems strange to me.

I feel a little paranoid over this. When we broke up in June, on HIS terms, he wrote poems daily and sent them to me telling me how miserable his was. I DONT WANT HIM BACK…let me make this clear…I just feel anxiety over why he hasn’t made contact…like this is ANOTHER game…but cant really be a game cause we arent talking? Does this make any sense!!!


Jofary – you hit on something I didn’t mention – that I come across as the one with the problem. This happened recently when I unfortunately agreed to meet with the ex’s most staunch supporter. He kept pushing and pushing to know why I am so rigid with pick up/drop off routines. I couldn’t say “because she is a sociopath” because that would feed into their idiology that I am angry and hostile, plus they just don’t get it. We just continue to keep our heads down and remain rigid about boundaries.

I made the mistake of telling him “she needs to be kept within fences”. He responded, “Aha, you just don’t want to be controlled”. Righto, I don’t!

Twice Betrayed

How I dealt with my first PX-I let him out of the child support if he would just go away. Which he did…for the $$.

Second PX: We have an adult daughter together…when I was no longer in the pic…his true personality took over and eventually he made our daughter so angry that she ditched him too. At some point he will surface again but they cannot maintain a relationship when you are no longer in the pic to pick up pieces.


GIRL…..get rid of his things….every last sock, every last item….PERIOD!
Then….you won’t worry anymore. Packem up and take them to moms house.
OR….you could send him a notice of abandoned possesions 14 day disposal…..
But, If you take them to his mothers, neatly packed up….then YOUR done.
He’s left them there for future contact….you know this.
And he’s keeping himself in your mind by ‘shaking it up’ and not doing what is characteristic by claiming them earlier.
SO…….it’s working isn’t it!

If your done, your done….do the ceremonial cleansing of his shit out of your ‘area’ and get rid of him completely.

Don’t rip up his stuff, don’t stain it with spilled ink ‘accidentally’, don’t ‘forget’ an item…….just give it back to him……

I remember packing up the S’s shit….the kids were riffeling through it like it was a damn garage sale…..I want this, I want that……I said NO firmly….This is NOT ours to take……I wouldn’t let them keep anything….not a shoelace…NOTHING….
But he was shocked…..I set it out on the porch prior to my hospitalization becasue I knew he would come over knowing I was gone and rifle through….so I did it for him…..
Take your shit and get the fuck away!

Since the divorce…..he was awarded a jet ski and cookbooks and a set of G. clubs…..divorce was mid may…..he’s NEVER attempted to make contact to get what he so diligently fought for in court…’d think he would of come by right away to claim them…..he didn’t……it was his LAST tie to me…..
So I severed that by sending a ‘shit or get off the pot’ letter…..of abandoned property…..never heard back and transfered title after that. Poof……ya waited too long fucker….take me back to court! There isn’t a judge on the planet that would think storing his shit for 8 months wasn’t reasonable…..
I wanted the jet ski……the rest i could care less…..but I needed to ‘sever’ the ability for him to ‘come back’ and think he had a reason.
So …….get rid of his shit…..and do it soon.
You’ll eliminate any connection to him and you will feel much better for it!



AHHHHHH HA HA! Thanks for the pep talk! My post I think sounded a bit like I was ‘waiting’ for ‘the call’…Im not. I just need to know if this IS, in fact, another tactic to keep me off balance. And, according to your post (which had me rolling by the way)…IT IS! So, again, Im not crazy! There was never an option to bring them to him…for gods sake…hell no!

Im thinking this cause he will be getting his license back in March…or POSSIBLY in March. It dawned on me the other day that he just may be keeping quiet because he has NO ONE to drive him to my house…except for mommy and daddy and even HE doesnt have the balls to ask them AGAIN to drive him to my house to get his shit. Maybe he is waiting until he gets the license so he can do this on his own…BUT…it will be too late cause his shit will be making ME money when I take it to Platos Closet!

Yes, another ‘tie’ to me…an ‘excuse’…god is he sick…reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyy sick…

Thanks so much!


I’m nearly getting my divorce now and I can’t wait for that day! I still see S , in and out of the house, some days with a sour face, other days trying to please, I keep myself to myself, he sends texts to tell me he will be out having lunch with his friends, I take no notice of anything he does. His strange behavior still continues and I try not to think of it and of anything else related to him. Soon I’ll be moving to South America and my son is already there.
I realized that I cannot change him, hope for anything, cling to the past, have a normal present with him, so he is complete OFF grounds for me. It is a bit like if he had died. I have a vague feeling that I was married to him in a distant past, but it does not affect me. I never discuss anything with him, I’m on my own.I never ask any favour,I never expect anything from him, I behave politely and cold. My day to day does not includes him or anything to do with him. It took me two years of pain and tears to get to this point, but I did. A sociopath does not change.


The question: how should I ‘be’ around the ex s.
My answer…..exactly how is described above…..good going guys!

Never let him ‘in’ on your feelings……verbally or through emotions…..facial expressions or otherwise.

We need to appear strong…..wherever you pull it from….DO IT!

We need to appear in control and on top of ourselves.

NEVER engage in them….NEVER.
Because WE are in control.


Appear Happy and settled…..this takes work.

Never let them see you sweat….

If you can’t control yourself, remove yourself.

Walk with confidence and keep your head held high.

Fake it till you make it!

WE need to do whatever it is to give them the signal that WE are in control of US and THEY can’t trigger us, provoke us or engage us in their game of power over us.

WE all must have varied degrees of ‘contact’ with the S at times…..some none, some court contact only, some have children to parent, some have to wrap up posession exchanges, financial dealings etc….
We must set the tone, the pace and the direction of the ‘contact’ that allows us to be comfortable….
If we feel ourselves slipping, then pull away and reconsider the direction your going and how your proceeding.

We do not EVER have to engage in their games again…..we did it for too long already… WE CAN SET THE RULES NOW!!!
It’s called boundaries!


Are you KIDDING me? NO one will bring him to get his shit….yeah….I don’t believe that for a second…..
He’s thinking door #2….access to YOU!
If you wanted something bad enough… get it!
He’d of asked someone……
He’s waiting to do it himself, so he can have alone time with you….
NIX that idea!
It would be worth it to drag it all over to mom and pops so he has to face them!
But….make sure you take photos of all his shit….just to document that if he sues you…..the emarald city jewels were NOT part of his things…..

My tenent stated in court, when he sued me, that he had all designer shit….european shit and it was valued at like 50K…..
Unfortunately, he forgot he had left all the receipts with the shit…..all from Ross, ebay etc…..
Yeah, right…..the sheriffs and I joked he would come back at me and say he had the malteese diamonds that I must have stolen.

Just cut him off from any potential avenue he may travel on.

Glad you had a laugh…..we gotta see the humor in anything these days!!!!

Start packen girl!!!!!



Erin B – Right on!

And its so true that it depends on the situation. If your ex is coming to your childs school and sports events and even going up to your mom and hugging her hello – you can always just busy yourself on the sidelines. If it is your goal to be cordial around your children because things have calmed down a bit – then I suggest doing to the S a bit of mimicking – he says hello — you say hello and then take a phone call, or find another parent to chat with — simply busy yourself and get through the event. You owe him nothing. Again – just set whatever boundaries you would like to have in place for your well being and that of your children.

If the situation calls for ZERO interaction because of unresolved issues, court hearings, total disrespect for you and your family members – treat them like Oxy says “as a potted plant in the room”….


very good post miss erin .. good for me that I am one of those that does not have to have contact in anyway..but if i do come across him somewhere sometime I will not give him the chance to engage me in eye contact or a chance to speak to me because it wont be pretty if I do…still have my paint ball gun ready just in case he comes a knockin tho…



Alone time with me…uh huh! At one point after we had broken up in June he sent me pictures of us on our second trip when things were still ‘good’ and said…’do you think we can get back to this baby…to the love we had our first year together?”

It almost made me sick cause I thought to myself “I DIDNT FUCK SHIT UP!” And he’s right…our first year and a half were very nice…and then he ‘met up’ with his ‘ex’ during a time he was pissed at me…and it went ALL DOWNHILL from that point on…

He tried asking ME if, in essence, I could change myself back to when we were dating in the beginning…you know, to the time when I believed what he said to me and he could do no wrong in my eyes. Unfortunately for him, I got ‘on’ to his game and the shit…and yes, I was different!

What a f*&%tard!


And by the way…my internet name has NOTHING to do with beign someones “ex”…
It means aerobics pycho babe…robxsykobabe!
Dont want anyone to think Im bragging about him…TRUST ME! 😛



I totally thought you were robs X pyscho babe….
My interpretation of your name….

Rob=the ex
sykobabe=what he used to call you…..psycho babe.

I’m cracking up….and I”M SO GLAD you clarified this for me!!!!
NEVER would I have gotten the aerobics connection…..



Was that purple and green to go with his black truck?

And BTW….I love the MISS part……I felt my whole life…I was mrs… MISS is a real honor!!!


We talk about the ‘eyes’
Check out this clown……OMG…the eyes just pop right out atcha!

This is my ‘thing’ lately….the eyes….even the kids say….OMG…mom did you see his eyes….I notice everyones eyes now.


NO, no…Im a group fitness instructor, a therapist and, well, a BABE! AHhhhhhhh ha ha ha ha!



I’m still laughing though…….


Oprah is interviewing the children of Wanda Barzee on today’s show.

Wanda Barzee and Brian David Mitchell are the ones who kidnapped Elizabeth Smart.
Speaking of creepy eyes, those two definitely have “psychopath eyes”.

Once again, the words “mental illness”, “monster”, & “master manipulator” were used, but not the word “psychopath”.
And, as far as I am concerned, these two are textbook psychopaths. The worst of the worst.

It’s scary because apparently Wanda Barzee is in a mental hospital getting “help” for her mental illness.

It’s truly a miracle that these kids turned out OK, because their accounts of childhood abuse are horrific.

They said they wanted to appear on Oprah, because the media mis-characterized their mother as a victim of Brian David Mitchell’s abuse.
They said that she is no victim.
Instead, they claim that she is a monster in her own right, and they wanted everyone to know it.


Hi Guys & Gals
Haven’t been here for awhile. I saw the ex in court over a week ago now, to get the Protection Order permanent, and boy, what a shock. I hadn’t seen him for awhile, and I was convinced he’d come in calm and suave and cool. But he was just bouncing off the wall, very inappropriate and (as the court’s advocate said) “unstable.” And he lied right there, in front of the judge. It was the first time ever that I knew for certain he was lying.

So, it’s been NC, and I’m like Donna – never had kids with him, never even married him or lived with him. So there’s a chance that, if he doesn’t lose it completely and coming after me (and I have a niggling fear that he could do that, especially since he threatened to, more than once. But that may have just been a fear game, to maintain control) I may never see him again.

Have strangely mixed feelings about never seeing him again.

Like you Robxsykobabe, our first year and a half or so (especially the year after the first 1/2 year) was very, very nice. I was crazy in love, and I believed he was, too. Then it started to get freaky. Won’t go into details; they just got too weird. (I talk about them elsewhere here, too.)

I didn’t see him for over a month before our little meetiing in court. My lawyer and the court’s advocate were dynamite. They knew I couldn’t SEE him, couldn’t look him in the eyes (oh, yeah, those eyes!) They knew I was way too raw still and couldn’t be alone with him. They just protected me like crazy. They knew I couldn’t show weakness or emotion, because that was what he was looking for. I think the blank slate that I ended up being may have been what made him nutty. He discovered he had no control, and the judge (another woman) really re-enforced that when she told him that if he demanded a hearing, it might result in her requesting that he go to Mental Health Counseling. He backed down then. So yes, I got a two year complete stay away order.

I meet women in my support group who married the guy, who had kids with him. As one of my group-mates says: “Don’t say anything bad about him. Just let your kids see their father. (or mother, or whatever the case may be) Let them know that they can always come back to you, too, and find love and non-judgemental support. They’ll figure out soon enough how awful he is, if they don’t know already. Then they’ll figure out their own ways of dealing with it.” It’s a bitter methodology, but it maintains some dignity, I think. For everyone. But it also takes superhuman strength.

My prayers go out to everyone who has to be superhuman, every day.


Congratulations on attaining the 2 year order.
NOW….Please be vigilant the next few months……
THis is a dangerous time, and you need to pay attention.
Live your life, but be vigilant while you go ‘back’ to normal.

It may be a new ‘normal’ now……which isn’t always a bad thing…..we learn how to protect ourselves and be aware of our surroundings……
If anything ever looks ‘out of place’ or feels odd….trust your gut and don’t deny it….call the police.
I believe most of these perps….(key word MOST) will get the picture….that your going to follow through and report….and find another ‘victim’ that will tolerate the abuse/threats and move on…

I’m pleased you followed through….this was the second step in showing the world ……you mean business!

Good job louise…..NOW…..stay safe darlen.


Thanks so much, ErinBrock–yes, you are SO right about learning to protect ourselves. I’ve been working so hard at observing the world around me. Like he did – he was such a predator – I know now why he always wore dark sunglasses, and why he always scoped the room the way he did, whenever he entered a new place. He KNOWS how to observe every little detail. It’s not second nature to him; it’s first nature. And he can see folks who don’t look at all the details. Those people become his victims.

I intend to take no victims. Just keep myself safe. You, too, Erin — thanks for the kind words!


OMG….the dark sunglasses….YIKES!

I remember after 911, traveling to Hawaii with the S and our kids….he kept his sunglasses on the whole time….in airport/and airplane, through security…..being asked to remove them and him pitching a fit…..
But I remember feeling stress of the reality of him being pulled aside by security because he looked suspicious….
I’d ask him to take them off…(mistake)…..and he’d say….why is it against the law to wear sunglasses now???
I thought it was so weird.
It was different than keeping mine on at times to people watch outfits and the way people interacted…..
He also kept the dark sunglasses on in grocery stores, shops, and restaurants and even at night time…..WEIRD!
He was ‘hiding’ something….this was a big red flag….looking back!


The “dark sunglasses” look was originated in 1984 by the delicious Canadian singer, Corey Hart, who sang the one-hit wonder, “Sunglasses at Night”.

Judging from these lyrics (don’t you love 80’s lyrics?), I think my Corey Hart was involved with a psychopathic female at some point.


I wear my sunglasses at night, so i can, so i can watch you weave your stories (?) or something like that. I took to humming that to myself when the sunglasses came out. When I went to court, I wanted to wear dark sunglasses, just to show him that he taught me well. But I didn”t.

I lived abroad for awhile, and one of our the trips I took with my S was to my “other” country. He got nailed every time he went through security! I should have paid closer attention to why they kept stopping him.

Yeah, BIG red flag. I know that now. The sunglasses that hide the eyes, and that hide the fact that he’s checking out every chick that walks through his line of vision.


Eyes…no sh!t…funny thing is…when I met my ex S he wore glasses. I liked his glasses…thought he looked better with them on. Of course, when they were off he looked odd, which I chalked up to not being able to see, naturally. THEN he got Lasix and he instantly didn’t look right to me. By THEN, I was already hooked and, while I back paddled, he already knew just how to play me. Six months later I was pregnant and INSTANTLY all hell broke loose.


I watched the Oprah show today….with the ‘Barzee’ kids….

What stood out for me was how obvious it was the rif between the one daughter/ the favorite and the rest…..

How one kid was pitted against the others and everyone….she was treated well… as not to substantiate the others claims of abuse. Like ONE ally.
She stood with her mother, not believing it, and changed her mind when her mother confessed just recently.
She didn’t live the same as the others in childhood and couldn’t believe the stories the kids told about the abuse……
You could see her wresteling with it…..wanting so badly to still believe her mother.

It is the same way S’s work in society…..keep at least one ally….to counter balance any bad stories….
and split people off and make them self doubt.

Even after they are exposed with PROOF….DNA, FACTS whatever…..these people still want to believe it…..
Now picture the ones on the fence still…….because we are raised to believe all people are ‘good’….they will naturally sway in the direction of the ally…..
Because if this person was really really bad……then the ‘ally’ would speak horrid about them too.

All to confuse and keep anyone off balance….

Generally, to beleieve someone is a Cluster B… really need to be intimate and destroyed by them to believe it….
But once we are in that position…..we are ALONE, unless there are other ‘victims’ that have lived it too.

Interesting watching the dynamics of the siblings.


Yes, Erin. I agree with everything you posted above.
It was very interesting to watch the dynamics of the siblings.

It reinforces what we read and talk about here.

I believe the one daughter (with the black hair) even said she does not really talk about the abuse she endured because, like she told Oprah, “Who would believe me?”

I think we can all relate to that statement.


Well…..knowing who her mother is now……I’d be talking away ……and nothing could shut me up!!!!!

Thanks for pointing the topic out today…..It was very interesting to watch…..from a survivors point of view.


Disappearing thread??? anyone have any idea why the ‘it starts at home disappeared? It’s creeping me out in a big way.


The one ‘ally’ child….you could see how conflicted she was….
that was just so tormenting to me……
I believe if someone pointed out CLuster B personality disorders to her and she educated herself…she would see behaviors in her mother and realize…..HOLY SHIT!!!

When they talked about the mother ‘getting help’ now…and on meds…..she showed so much conflict of hope…..(reality vs hope) it was really sad and I could relate to that feeling she showed….the hope…..of so wanting it all to be untrue, and if she could just change it, life would be so different. The hope she held in her eyes.


well watching oprah just now – has brought up many unpleasant memories and thoughts of my mother..ya know i have put her in a place that does not torment me – I will be so happy when I can do that with the s-ex


jake – you are not at square one. ’cause you SEE the effect of what you did. you are at least at square 2 or 3 🙂

i think there are reasons (unhealed bits) we ‘look’ and it is an opportunity to take a close look at why you checkd out fb and some of the factors in your life that may have made that look like an attractive option.

don’t be beating yourself up -use the opportunity.


I could not believe how uninformed they all seemed to be about Cluster B disorders!!
They were living it, and yet, they were still uneducated about it. At least it seemed that way.

I wish Oprah would have also had a psychiatrist on the show, like Dr. Leedom, explaining the disorder, the abuse that goes with it, and the dynamics of it all as these people told their story.
That’s what people need to see in order to understand this kind of abuse.

I was creeped out by the letters Wanda Barzee sent to her kids from the mental hospital. Like you said Erin, the “golden child” wanted to believe the letter was sincere, but the others were rolling their eyes.
It reminded me of an article on this website titled, “Realities Only Family Members Know”, written by Dr. Leedom.


Welcome, welcome……
I second Onesteps comment to you.

This is a great opportunity to connect with your reaction….you won’t do it again…
It hurts, things run through our heads, we ‘want’ to know…..
But when we do…..KABANG! WE wish we could take it all away.

Jake, this is lifes way of teaching you a lesson you needed to learn……and it sounds as if you’ve learned it….and will continue learning……
Don’t beat on yourself…’s OKAY!

If you don’t get the lesson this time around….it’ll be back around again, and again….until you get it.

So raise your head back up and move forward down your path of healing…..
We all have curiosity…’s what we choose to do with it!

Shake it up baby…..shake it up!!!



I’m with ya Rosa… was a perfect opportunity for education and changing lives though knowledge!

Missed the boat again……


I did the same thing Jake – after 2 years no contact I just had to look at fb and sure nuff there it was – and using a picture I took of it. there is an option on FB it’s called block this person – I did that also – not that this person would ever be interested in looking for me on FB. I am curious also but it didnt kill this cat – just gave me chills…and a big sigh of relief..


i went to to find the episode, but it seems like it isn’t online yet. hmmm, i will go check out youtube.

sigh, we have to start this party earlier – its’ almost 2 am here.


There always seems to be more ‘work’ to do!

Keep on trucken dude!

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