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LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Whole relationships documented in phones is not proof of authenticity

Editor’s note: The following article was written by a Lovefraud reader who uses the name “Transcendence.”

I had not received so much confirmation or documentation of being in a “relationship” before. The biggest problem was that he managed to rarely see me in person and he had a habit of cancelling and sometimes even “FORGETTING” dates. My first intoxicating Romantic Narcissist occurred 4 years ago and I had never experienced a suitor so sexy, seductive, intelligent, well written with poetic prose and boyishly handsome with seeming innocence.

I remember waiting desperately for a return txt ”¦ or phone call ”¦ obsessively ”¦ this man could send me to heaven or throw me into the black abyss. The euphoria of the sexy banter ”¦ the wanting and being wanted. But nothing can compare to the depths of searing pain of being abandoned ”¦ of the broken promises”¦and the crushing of the heart.

Reeling me in

He blew up my phone with fun and provocative texts ”¦ and he could sense when I was beginning to pull away and analyze the situation and he would reel me in with a challenge or an enticing promise. When he knew I was hopelessly enamored and committed he would suddenly drop out of sight and string me along for days”¦with me at times desperate and broken hearted ”¦ begging for some small offer of contact if only to know he was “okay”.

How I yearned for this illusive man ”¦ and how I anguished over the tumultuous bewildering pattern”¦trying to keep my head above the dark deceptive waters of exploitation. What is so ironic about these crushing relationships is the jealousy of others as they witness the attention we get by these handsome, intelligent, charming men.

After 5 weeks I figured out that he was cheating and lying about it ”¦ I mean CHEATING ”¦ serial obsessive sex. I broke it off ”¦ which was so hard as I was already crazy for him. I thought he was “the one” and I was going to help him raise his kids. It was so difficult ”¦ I cried so much I missed work the next day. He was so persuasive in txts and emails but I held my ground.

Fell harder than before

I had not had sex with him but had spent a few languishing nights in his arms with him wrapped around me and I was “hooked”. After the break up I had a number of dates from online and was getting hit on quite a bit ”¦ so that helped somewhat. The break up was early November. But by the end of December ”¦ we started txting ”¦ and I thought I could just mess with him ”¦ and it took him a solid month of epic txts but he was so convincing that I fell harder than before and longed desperately to see him! All these other things seemed to fall into place magically as if to bring us back together! His New Year’s Eve txt rolled in “Lucky is the guy who gets you at Midnight”

Thus began again another electrifying, confusing, romp where after 5 months I made love with him after only being with one man in my life (my exNhusband) and being celibate nearly 10 yrs! Then he abandoned me AGAIN right after ”¦ and me putting in so much effort to try to have a relationship with him”¦he would have me wait for his call and he would stand me up ”¦ and sadly and woefully I only actually got to see him maybe once or twice a month. And in hindsight ”¦ he had probably had sex with someone before and after he saw me!

After investing so much and him playing games and hurting me and breaking promises”¦I would try to break it off with him again. I wrote, “No relationship could survive on the crumbs you offer”. He was so good at blaming his job where he travelled and taking care of his kids. (I never even MET the kids) To be honest I feel like such a fool ”¦ and I was so good to him ”¦ and caring ”¦ he asked me not to give up on him. I do know that he was truly hurting and his family treated him like crap ”¦ and he was sexually traumatized within his family. That is what was so hard ”¦ I understood where the obsessive sexual behavior came from ”¦ the revictimization of self and then the predatorial behavior all wrapped up in one man.

More narcissists

In the end he abandoned me ”¦ kept my stuff ”¦ and left me with no closure ”¦ and a huge broken heart. He was very cruel”¦and I cared very deeply for him. I went on to 2 more serious relationships with N’s that lasted about 5 to 7 months ea. The next one was a cerebral N who had slight Asperger’s ”¦ and he was also very seductive and pursued me hard. And he was so very self-centered and arrogant ”¦ and full of RAGE! He cruelly abandoned me and treated me like CRAP! Then 2 months later was my last N ”¦ who was the pinnacle of exploitation ”¦ I literally ended up under his thumb ”¦ and somehow I ended up LIVING in a hotel room with him ”¦ and eventually seduced into having sex with him and my life was kidnapped ”¦ within 5 months I thought he loved me and we actually had a good relationship! And he was cruel and deceptive ”¦ punitive ”¦ critical ”¦ threatening ”¦ and he actually used abandonment at opportune times to break me down, literally.

He left me devastated and shattered 2 years ago ”¦ broke every promise and I had allowed myself to compromise so much of my integrity that I had lost much of my identity ”¦ it only took him 5 months to almost get me to the point that 1o yrs of marriage to an abuser did!

All in the phones

Back to the phones ”¦ I was trying to find an old phone to “activate” while I waited for a new phone to arrive. My old phones hold whole relationships ”¦ all with N’s ”¦ and I had enough juice to read the txts of the first romantic N ”¦ and after working hard at recovery and grieving the losses and coming out of denial ”¦ I could literally pinpoint all the seduction ”¦ how he worked on me so smoothly ”¦ and got me to send him sexy pictures ”¦ so intoxicating ”¦ and how he got me to want him so badly. How he convinced me that he cared and that we had a future and he was faithful. I really wasn’t stupid ”¦ he was really good at deception ”¦ and I wasn’t an easy target ”¦ it’s the challenge the smart ones love. At one time my whole phone was full of his vm’s and 100’s of txts ”¦ and I had emails too! I would go over and over them in bewilderment! How could it not be real?

I did still cry a little bit ”¦ but I probably sobbed for a number of months when I was getting to the nitty gritty of all those disordered destructive relationships ”¦ that would never yield a healthy bounty.

It is hard to metabolize the lack of care they actually have for us ”¦ how shallow their emotions really are. And how they can just flip a switch and be rid of us ”¦ and we are left with gaping wounds ”¦ and they turn and walk away.

I have learned so much and come through so much grief; old and new ”¦ and life is much fresher ”¦ and I am overall more content. I was fully addicted to those familiar relational patterns ”¦ and that chemical cocktail of romance that literally floods the mind and body with endorphins, oxytocin, and dopamine ”¦ whether one has full on sex or not. I have still been attracted to a few predators ”¦ but over time I am becoming more acute at diagnosing the situation when it arises ”¦ and am so thankful the formerly powerful lure is growing weaker and weaker ”¦

Transcendence


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82 Comments on "LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Whole relationships documented in phones is not proof of authenticity"

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Transcendence, I am so sorry that you had so many wild rides with bad men, and I very much appreciate your openly sharing your experiences.

The types of predators that you describe could have been the exspath, with the exception of children being involved.

From this site, and through intensive counseling therapy, I have learned so much about these predators AND about myself. One thing that I learned was that I will never, ever, EVER rely upon any technological device or service to “find someone.” I met the second exspath “online” and believed him to be an honest and truthful friend for a long while before I fell for his prose, innuendo, and flattery. What a crock of b.s.! HOW could anyone really “know” me by just what is typed? I was an absolute fool to trust anyone without the benefit of face-to-face interactions.

Even with those interactions, “bad people” had their “in-roads” through my lack of boundaries.

I’m so glad that you’re recovering, Transcendence, and I believe that you have learned and EARNED your wisdom, even if those lessons were horrible ones. Thank you, again, for sharing your experiences. It not only helps you to purge them, but it helps me (and, others) to recognize that predators aren’t just limited to myself and that, with each new story on LoveFraud, it drives the point home for me that I need to work on ME before I ever even entertain the notion of another partner.

Brightest supportive blessings

I had a whole stack of “love letters” from my ex husband the psychopath when he was in Viet Nam. I tried to keep them like war brides are supposed to but they were so sickeningly phoney I threw them all away because of the pain of looking at them. I wish I had kept them to re-read after I figured out what he was. I bet they would be funny to read now or at least very telling of his disorder.

You could publish these messages to show how utterly unfathomable they are when they do not have you hypnotized. I am sure we would all get it and maybe others who are immune to their sickness.

Betsybugs….yeah…..prose can be SO eloquent and words can be bantied about to produce the most incredible responses and reactions, can’t they?

UGH…..

I think the key here obviously is you barely ever saw this man in person. I get that. The relationship I had with the spath was basically the same way and the reason being is he was married (separated) AND preying on other woman…I was hardly the only one…haha, that’s a joke!! So there is a lesson to be learned…when someone pretty much only communicates through text…you can almost guarantee there is a wife or other women. That is WHY they are not seeing us in person…they have other obligations. We were only playthings to them…something to appease them in the moment…it’s a whim and all a game to them. I know. I was a victim of that crap and it’s nasty and damaging.

This is a good look at what should be a significant relationship red flag in the modern age: being “managed” via text messages.

FTLOG, some of these people can’t be bothered to actually make a real phone call. Their targets are finding that perfectly acceptable, until they realize it’s just not normal to never actually hear the voice, or see the body, associated with the messages.

Right…let me say, there were a lot of misunderstandings between spath and I due to everything being via text…I basically had to be a mind reader. Things were vague and not being able to hear the voice or see body language can be very misleading. That’s what he wanted though…he wanted to be vague and drive me crazy. His plan worked.

Oh and yes, if a man can’t call me, something is wrong! RED FLAG!

Good on ya, Louise. (thumbsup)

I had a guy, not long after the breakup with the spath, who not only tried to lovebomb but also manipulate, abuse, and then devalue because I wasn’t biting the apple hard enough — all within something like 10 days, and all of it by text message. I couldn’t even take it seriously it was just that ridiculous.

It was confusing in a “wtf is wrong with this guy?” sort of way. It just came across as half-cocked, no real effort put into it.

Thanks. Yeah, it’s good that once we are taken like that, we recognize the signs right away the second time around. No thanks…I don’t want any part of it as soon as I see the same things I saw before. Nope, no way!

Unreal and after only 10 days? I don’t know who these guys think they are…really. It’s sickening. I won’t give them the time of day.

Unfortunately a “cyber relationship” is built more in our heads than any were else…we built up these fantasy relationships….my “fantasy relationship” was with my son who is in prison and it was via mail and a few visits (as he is far away so I wasn’t able to visit often) but this fantasy phone relationship is the same I think, just a fantasy in our heads, and I realize just how difficult it is to admit that the whole relationship is a construct of our desires for it to be SO….how painful it is to admit we might as well have been Linus waiting for the Great Pumpkin to come to the pumpkin patch. Or Charlie Brown waiting for Lucy to NOT pull the foot ball away.

It ain’t easy to give it up, but it is the only healthy way to live.

Ditto…Ditto…Ditto

10 days…

Wish they were all that obvious.

There is one good thing about cell phones, though. Almost everyone has one and there is no reason a date cannot call unless they are dead. Stand me up once…it’s the last time.

Kmillercats,

That’s the thing, standing someone up is a big RED FLAG and we must RUN as fast as possible when we see a red flag—of irresponsibility, of rudeness, of immorality, or dishonesty….we will be treated by others only as well as we ALLOW them to treat us.

If we allow some people to lie to us, use and abuse us, then that is the way that person will CONTINUE to treat us.

BOUNDARIES work!

Dupey, thanks for the empowering link. Something that I needed to read, today.

OxD, yepper. ONE “Red Flag” is all it takes to shut that door, whether it’s man, woman, or child.

Brightest blessings!

Any sort of a “long distance” relationship is a big red flag, on both parties. Yes, there are some instances where due to travel that people meet who are right for each other, but such is rare.

Long distance is the sociopath’s hunting ground. It enables them to juggle multiple persons. Phone and internet communications are easy to control and plays ti their charm.

In fact, the Jekyll (phone and internet) and Hyde (in person) persona differences with my x-spath are so remarkable, that in retrospect this alone is enough for me to conclude he such.

BBE: Yes, you are right.
I should have questioned it.

I DO know, for a fact, he was away at war.
THREE back to backs. Without a doubt.

I should have kept myself under better wraps
instead of feeling sorry for “IT”. That was my
biggest downfall.

Every word you said is true.

Your welcome Truthspeak for the link.
It was my wish to ’empower’ with it and
I am happy it worked!

I am doing okay.
Shaken but okay.

Night everyone –

Dupey

This is my first time ever posting anything on here. I have read so many stories and so many comments and it is so frightening to know that there are so many of these people out there. It is also comforting because I know I am not alone. I don’t know how to use this sight. I just know that I am struggling so very much every day with the aftermath of my ex spath. I find it hard to cope and I can’t talk to anyone about it because they just don’t understand. I would love to share my story, but i dont know were to start or how to even post without being a comment under someone else’s story. Anyone willing to give me some pointers?

lostmyself,
you can post your story anywhere. Or you can submit it to Donna and see if she will post it as an article.

It IS frightening to know they are everywhere. If it weren’t for that, I think most of us could “get over it” or “just move on”.

I can see them pretty quickly, now. Yet, it almost makes it worse. While I’m glad that they can’t sneak up on me anymore, it is still debilitating to know that they exist everywhere.

This is a problem that has been around for millennia. We have grown and solved many of humanity’s problems, so we have to just keep trying and growing. Maybe we’ll finally get the answer to this one. It does seem like we’re getting closer. The internet has made a huge difference.

Back_from_the_edge says;

We always feel sorry for them. Pity play is part of the mask. Pity plays are so strong that even when we find out truths that the x-spath tried to hide, we feel for them…

Tonight, I saw a documentary on the early days of AIDS. I could not help but think of him…

I think our sadness inside comes from the pivotal realization that they are truly sick people. Once we find out ‘who’ they really are, suddenly, it all changes and won’t ever go back to the ‘lies’ we held so dear. But, they didn’t. To them, we were only a ‘toaster’…an appliance to use to help them get to where ever it is they are headed. Their sick, twisted outlooks and their journey of evil.

Pity is a HUGE RED FLAG.
Once you realize ‘who’ they are, just stop playing the game,
strengthen yourself inside and force yourself to move forward.

I have wasted almost 13 years of my life on a person who only
pretended to care and the whole time the pity party was alive, well, and kicking.
And, I swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.

HOWEVER: BBE: It is okay to separate yourself from the experience and pretend it never happened. It is.
It is really hard to do at first; it takes LOTS of strength and courage but they DO become a faded distant memory, after a while….

It’s sad – we know who and what they are and we have to let go knowing that they are really headed no where – but we have to realize THEY HAVE CHOICES TOO. We are NOT responsible for them nor their choices.

We must ALL be responsible for ourselves in this life.
Remember who you are. Put all your eggs in that basket
and I promise you, you won’t lose.

On my way to a day full of doctor/medical appointments.
Hopefully, my journey out into the world won’t hold any
difficulties for me…

Love ~ Dupey

“…but we have to realize THEY HAVE CHOICES TOO. ”

Absolutely. This is the most important thing I learned from Ox.

Most sociopaths, although inclined to be such, are not destined to be such. Along the way, they make choices and each choice moves them closer and closer to their fate, almost like Dorian Gray’s painting…

Even in your relationshits, they make choices: to lie, to manipulate, to withhold important facts about them, to cheat…

This is why we must focus on the facts that we know. One lie is enough, as if there is one, there are 100…

BBE: I am not sure if MOST sociopaths, although inclined to be such, are not DESTINED to be such. I can’t make an accurate judgment on that.

I do know that whether they have the capacity to CHOOSE different or not, THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN CHOICES.

For instance, in my case, was I really suppose to just lay down and let the semi truck run me over, back and forth, a few times? Hm? Well, of course, it HAD happened, a few times, in fact, and I still, hung on, hoping and wishing for the best. Not just for me, but for “IT” too.

Then, one day, it HIT ME, right upside the head…
This person or ‘being’ WAS destined to be just exactly
‘who’ “IT” is and that is completely unacceptable to me.

Once the mask melted off and I got to really see who that person was/is – it’s more like a nightmare than a fond memory.
One I try to run from as frequently as I possibly can. Horrors,
some of them, unimaginable. All done through mind control.

I think there are some ppaths destined to be the ugly wart they are and then I also think some of them are acquired victims of perhaps some unusual circumstances in their life.

Whichever it is, it is a choice.
We do not have to be responsible for another persons choices,
only ours.

Yes, funny you should mention Dorian Gray’s portrait…
I have often thought of “IT” in the same fashion. Very
poetic, I know – more than it deserves – but instead of
a ‘romanticism’ about it – I have found the HORRORS.
They stifle me to this very moment, in fact.

All we can do is accept what is real.
Listen to our hearts and ourselves…
our emotions were given to us to heed,
but to heed equally with our heads as our hearts.

This is such an ironclad lesson I have learned at such a late age
in my life. I am humbled beyond all explanation that I am still
sitting here, writing and not buried in a hole in the desert somewhere or that I died on the operating table during my
heart surgeries.

It has taken me a long while to adjust to this shock in my life
and I know I still have a long ways to go. But, I am making it.
I have the dirt, the blood and the broken nails TO PROVE I have
been trying to claw my way out of this hole…

This dark, dank, ugly hole….

One lie is MORE than enough.
The human ear should not listen to the second.

xxoo

Back_from_the_edge;

Besides genetics, there are social factors that can cause a genetically predispositioned individual to become a sociopath:

1) Single parent home;
2) Physical or sexual abuse;
3) Growing up poor;
4) Growing up in a city.

However, the majority of the above do not become sociopaths. Thus, I lean to a combination of factors.

Regarding my x-spath, I know for a fact he met 3 of 4 factors above. I also have strong evidence he was subject to either physical or sexual abuse, that evidence being a once saw him disassociate when I was having an argument with a Taxi driver who was taking us for a “ride.”

BBE,
interesting. can you describe what you witnessed him do during the disassociation?

well i got 4 out of 4 ~! bingo~!

3 out of 4 for me, MoonDancer…
We should start a club or something, ya think?

Disassociation: I have seen that look before…
when it came over “IT”….that Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde
transformation and it’s very scarey. The bouncing
off walls and the hyperactivity…too much to deal
with. Sometimes the hatred was directed right at
me when it shouldn’t have been at all. But, you see,
“IT” PERCEIVED I was a threat when I wasn’t at all.

So, it started threatening me after I refused the proposals
and advances and swallowed all the lies. Just pure evil,
I tell ya.

Yah, my x ppath has all of those BBE listed and MORE….
Trust me. There was NOTHING you could say with “IT”
around that wasn’t turned into a big huge explosion with
fireworks and flailing arms and fists…NOTHING. He had
a nasty counter FOR EVERYTHING.

I have never witnessed ANY THING so ugly before in my life.
And I have seen A LOT of really ugly things. Trust me.

I am just totally blown away by all of this.
But, I AM on the path to “ME”. I am. It’s
amazing but I am making it and I attribute
a lot of that to all of you.

Thank you for being here for me and for listening
and for caring. I hope you all will have a good Holiday
Season and that you will be able to find something to
give yourself: the gift of peace inside.

Dupey

BBE, I’m in that “choice” camp, as well. Everyone has made “bad” choices in their lifetime that have hurt themselves, and others. And, I mean EVERYONE. But, spaths continue making choices that harm others without remorse or conscience. That’s the crux of the matter. I’m also in total agreement that one “Red Flag” is enough for me to slam that door shut. I don’t care if it’s a man, woman, or child, I do not have the time or inclination to jump into the cesspool to find the golden nugget, ANYMORE. Nope, nope, nope. Just one “Red Flag,” and I’m out.

Dupey, it is definitely a choice that they make. I actually told the exspath when I found his “stash” that he had deliberately hidden this aspect of his life from me because such deviant interests don’t just crop up in one’s life one morning and the person says to themselves, “You know, necrophilia and genital mutilation might be a turnon. I think I’ll give that a try, today.” This was, of course, before I ever knew of the financial frauds. That onion got peeled only after he left, for good.

So, they DO know that what they are doing is “wrong,” either morally or legally. For me, it’s this fact, alone, that causes my skin to crawl.

Brightest blessings

The interesting aspect of the “long distance” or “technological” relationshit is precisely as OxD mentions: the “good” aspects are entirely in our own minds! Absolutely!

The exspath threw words out there for me to interpret, and he had me pretty well pegged because I exposed my own vulnerabilities and desires TO him. So, the simple question, “Will you never wed, again?” was translated BY ME as a “romantic” question. Who uses that term, today? Of course, I didn’t interpret it as a proposal of marriage, but I interpreted it to mean that this person viewed marriage as a binding of hearts. Well……I have to accept responsibility for my own interpretation and the illusion that I allowed to be constructed within my own mind.

“Technological” relationships also allow for secrecy. The exspath truly enjoyed romanticizing a long-distance relationshit because it served his purposes. And, I fell for the whole illusion.

Today, I do not have a cell phone. I find that text-messaging irritates me, on every level, except for the random message of “need milk – stop and pick it up, please.” It is intrusive, rude, and NOT true communication. I find it difficult to tolerate watching people text message because it’s entirely bogus.

Brightest blessings

Dupey, Well I am not sure about no.4, I did grow up in the country, but it was in the city limit’s of a country city. So, maybe there’s hope for me afterall. ?

Skylar;

The disassociation occurred when I argued with a taxi driver over the route he was taking. For me, it was a typical New York City incident. I driver and I argued, straightened out the “miscommunication” and in the end, I gave him a good type.

While this was going on, I looked over at the x-spath and he was literally pushing himself into the corner of the taxi and had a blank look on his face — like a kid trapped in a corner.

Truthspeak;

While I am in the “choice” camp for most sociopaths, I do support the notion that some are essentially programmed from birth. These would tend to score very high on the Hare scale and are what most would consider to be a “psychopath.”

This Wiki entry provides a good summary:

“Several researchers have argued that there exist two variants of psychopathy. There is also empirical support for separating persons scoring high on the PCL-R into two groups that do not simply reflect Factor 1 and Factor 2. There is at least preliminary evidence of differences regarding cognition and affect as measured in laboratory tests. Different theories characterize these two variants somewhat differently. Compared to “primary” psychopaths, researchers agree “secondary” psychopaths have more fear, anxiety, and negative emotions. They are often seen as more impulsive and with more reactive anger and aggression. Some preliminary research have suggested that secondary psychopaths may have had a more abusive childhood according to self-reports (which possibly may be inflated in secondary psychopathy), may have a higher risk of future violence, and may respond better to treatment.

Primary psychopathy has been seen as mainly due to genetic factors while secondary psychopathy has been seen as mainly due to environmental factors which also has implications for treatment possibilities. Such proposed environmental factors include an abusive childhood or a society presenting opportunities for cheating. Other researchers have argued that genetics and environment are important for both variants. David T. Lykken, using Gray’s biopsychological theory of personality, have argued that primary psychopaths innately have little fear while secondary psychopaths innately have increased sensitivity to rewards. Proponents of the triarchic model described above see primary psychopaths associated with increased boldness and secondary psychopathy as associated with increased disinhibition.”

My x-spath was clearly a secondary type: more fear, anxiety, and negative emotions. I believe Steve refers to these as “sorta sociopaths.”

Primary psychopaths are extremely dangerous from a criminal/violence perspective. Secondary psychopaths, especially relatively “mild” ones like my x-spath, are extremely dangerous form a relationship perspective.

BBE,
that’s interesting to me because I’ve noticed that about some spaths. Not so much my exspath, but some others.

Whereas I will stand up for myself and feel and act entitled to good service, special attention and my money’s worth, these spaths are AFRAID to ask for anything when out in public. They only become abusive in the privacy of their home and with people who love them.

A couple of spaths, at different times, have said that they wish they could just walk up to strangers and talk to them, like I do. They lack the confidence to approach strangers, to send back a plate that was prepared wrong, even to return merchandise at the store. Consequently, people can walk all over them.

The only way they can win is by cheating and lying. And usually they do this to people who have the misfortune to care about them.

I didn’t notice this about my exspath but then, I wasn’t watching for it. He may have been aware of it and hidden it.

“The interesting aspect of the “long distance” or “technological” relationshit is precisely as OxD mentions: the “good” aspects are entirely in our own minds! Absolutely!”

Right on. 50% of the occasions that I was with my x-spath he did displayed outrageous behavior that left my head spinning. Always, overreactions to something minor. Even the first night I met him — we stepped out of a club in Midtown Manhattan and next to the gay club was a Rapper club. There was an argument going on between two of the Rappers and I grabbed the x-spath and said “let’s get out of bullet range…”

He immediately went into a diatribe about Americans and guns. Keep in mind I am fairly anti-gun, but I found his monologue grating and inappropriate, especially given he was in my city and just met me.

I turned to him and said” “You Brits don’t know how lucky you have it. You sent the religious kooks here, criminals to Australia and the rest of the undesirables to Canada, leaving nothing but poofs like yourself, hence no need for guns.”

However, via email, text or phone, he was always charming, polite and flattering.

BBE:

Or it brought up memories of perhaps his parent’s fighting while maybe he did curl up in a corner? Interesting. That seemed extreme…I think the fight with the taxi driver triggered memories for him.

BBE,
I call the secondary spaths, “failed spaths”, because they failed to completely cut off all emotions, so they still have anxiety. They don’t feel any empathy for us, but they still feel fear. It’s pathetic.

A pure, primary spath doesn’t have any emotions at all, no anxiety, not even a startle response. My exspath was that way.

skylar:

That is mine…secondary spath. He was very anxious all the time…very nervous…fearful. That was so him. He needs the alcohol to calm him.

Louise,
what about the OW?
primary or secondary?

skylar:

Hmmmm, hard to say. She is absolutely a pathological liar. She did have anxiety, but it seemed like only when it was about her. She had a very calm demeanor. I would say perhaps primary.

Louise,
that’s what I thought.
I’m starting to think that this is why people talk about female spaths being worse than the male ones. It seems like there are fewer female spaths but the ones that there are, are more diabolical. They wear the mask well.

skylar:

I agree 100%. Female spaths use all the things that females normally can use…their sweetness and their sexuality. Their evil intentions are masked by their “female” wares and it’s very hard to detect because people just think they are being flirty or sexual when in reality, these behaviors are covering up their evil deeds. It’s horrible. I saw it in action every day at work.

I dont think there are more male spaths than female spaths. I would say it’s 50/50. Str8 men prolly dont talk about it as much. This blog is 99% female I would guess. And men can use their sweetness and sexuality just the same as women. Beside’s that spaths are not gay or str8, they will use anyone to their advantage.

moondancer,
I have the same question for you: was your spath a “nervous spath”? Or more like a woody allen type spath?

he was calm cool and collected most of the time, he got bored very easy and would get upset and cause an argument so he could storm off in a rage, so he could go do his thing, then he would come back all lovey dovey like i hung the moon..that would last till his next payday. he didnt show any signs of fear….
but all this could change at the drop of a hat – i never knew from one day to the next what his demeanor would be. I would say for the most part he was very confident and didnt have a problem taking advantage of me, like if i was dumb enuff to fall for it i deserved it kind of thing…if he showed any signs of fear it was fear of abandonment, fear of being alone,,,but no he was not a nervous type at all..he did no wrong according to him,,,,,

Louise:

We we got out of the cab, he actually lectured me for “treating the driver badly…” But he did note I left a good tip.

For me the New Yorker, it was total a WTF? experience. We always get into arguments with taxi drivers! In fact, one Mother’s Day, my brother, mother and I were thrown out of a taxi cab when my *mother* got into an argument with one…

“Or it brought up memories of perhaps his parent’s fighting while maybe he did curl up in a corner? Interesting. That seemed extreme”I think the fight with the taxi driver triggered memories for him.”

His father estranged him when he was 4 years old. But clearly, somebody physically abused him, perhaps a boyfriend of his mother. Maybe even sexual abuse, tbh. Such fits with his porn tastes…

While all the drama with him was going on, a doctor friend of mine made an interesting comment. He said that the x-spath rapidly felt comfortable with me. Given this, he treated me like I was part of the family: drama…

Skylar:

I such to call secondary sociopaths “failed” psychopaths, it is simply part of the continuum. Regarding anxiety, mine definitely displayed that — pacing back and forth for example…

i guess things are very different in NY, but if you got in an argument with a cab driver while I was around I would be mortified. people just dont do that here, specially make a habit of it.

Moondancer;

Evidence suggest there are more male sociopaths than female, one reason being that womb testosterone levels are thought to be a factor.

Interestingly there are significantly more female borderlines than males. Some believe that Borderline Personality Disorder is essentially the female manifestation of sociopathy.

Pure homosexuals are an different lot, and I say this as a gay male. Studies indicate a significantly higher percentage of Cluster-B personality disorders among homosexuals, both sociopaths and borderlines…

In fact, my counselor though my x-spath is a borderline. My x-spath’s best friend is a borderline. This friend is open about being Borderline and blogs about it. This friend is also HIV+ and openly blogs about that.

In fact, once I saw the friend’s blog, it was the last piece of evidence that convinced me my x-spath was HIV+ but *not* borderline.

Why? Borderlines tend to spew and be open about their issues. Sociopaths are the exact opposite….

MoonDancer,
My question was about how he behaved around other people, like waiters and store clerks and cops (strangers). I was wondering if he was passive or assertive.

BBE,
the reason I call them “failed spaths” is because sociopaths/psychopaths are supposed to have “no emotions”.

People think of spaths as being cold and emotionless, and especially FEARLESS.

Who ever heard of a nervous psychopath? lol. That wouldn’t work in a slasher movie, I don’t think.

“i guess things are very different in NY, but if you got in an argument with a cab driver while I was around I would be mortified. people just dont do that here, specially make a habit of it. ”

Moondancer, we all do. It is because the drivers invariably like to take people for a “ride”, especially women…

And its not like the drivers are passive either…

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