A Lovefraud reader informs us that the current issue of Psychology Today features an article about narcissists—how they behave, and how to detect them. It’s an interesting article, because narcissism is a component of sociopathy. All sociopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are sociopaths.
Read How to spot a narcissist, on PsychologyToday.com.
Note: The article quotes the theories of a researcher named Peter Jonason, among others. Lovefraud has written about Jonason’s ideas before—I don’t agree with them. You can read it here:
oxy said: ‘”.they gorge themselves on attention, but it doesn’t “last—”and an hour later they are again seeking more attention. ‘ and this is my n ex – who called the week before last.
and this is a warning for me in how i protect myself as i heal, ‘think they are never satisfied with themselves”no matter how arrogant and self centered they are.’
Glad you like my quotes One, pleased to be able to say something helpful. 🙂
can’t through the article that begins this thread…maybe i am too tired – but i find that it meanders too much to keep my attention.
one of the first things it says is that n’s have high esteem. hmm, I would have to disagree on that as a general statement. my n ex didn’t seem to have high esteem at all, nor my sib. n sire – probably. all wanting to be admired more than liked – you betcha!
will try to get through the rest of it tomorrow. i am thinking about narcissism since the n ex called. want to look at my sib and sire in more detail also.
One, I’m not sure if they actually have high self esteem or if they WANT high self esteem and therefore compensate for lack of it by acting like they have it. Catch 22. Sometimes I think o ne way and sometimes the other. Arrogance and a sense of entitlement are not necessarily the same as high self esteem, but I think could be mistaken for it.
OneJoy and Oxy,
I’ve given this a lot of thought about the high vs. low self esteem. The reason it’s so hard to analyze a spath is because we tend to anthropomorphize them. They have neither low nor high self esteem. They have NO self-esteem. When you have either low or high self esteem, it’s still YOUR self esteem. When you have NO self esteem, you BORROW esteem, just like you would borrow a book from the library. WE give them esteem in our own eyes and it appears that they have however much esteem we give them in our perception. They are shallow mirrors that can reflect what you are, as well as, what you desire them to be.
They have neither low nor high self esteem because there’s nothing there. That’s why they are always looking for a madonna wife to keep for show, they ride others’ coat tails, they brown nose authority and they seek attention. They not only have no self-esteem without us, but without attention, they don’t even exist in their own minds. You have to BE before you can have self-esteem. You have to have a SELF before you can have esteem for the self.
my sib doesn’t have good esteem – but she does feel intellectually superior, and more attractive (or sexy or whatever it is) than most people; definitely entitled and arrogant, and more important than others. i think it manifests a bit differently in her than others because of her enviro illnesses. she’d probably be even more insufferable if she didn’t have those challenges. but i hate to see her undermined by the enviro illnesses – i’d feel that way about anyone. 🙁
This is an excellent article, Donna!
Incidentally as I said an earlier post, I don’t believe that “ALL psychopaths are necessarily narcissists.” While there obviously is a great deal of overlap between the two conditions (and some people, like Sam Vaknin, are definitely both), I’m sure Oxy is right when she points out that the level of narcissism can vary considerably from one psychopath to another. I think the “Dark Triad” approach does get one thing right by treating “psychopathy” and “narcissism” as independent personality traits.
This article on narcissism helps to explain why the two are independent. Most personality disorders could be characterized by one or maybe two overriding traits that are the primary “drivers” of the condition. These are the central factors that motivate (or permit) the dysfunctional thinking and behavior. In the case of psychopathy, that central factor is the lack of what we call a “conscience,” which seems to be part of a broader lack of inhibition rooted in a profound emotional deficit. Without a conscience to moderate their behavior, psychopaths can be capable of perpetrating all kinds of antisocial acts—simply because there’s nothing to stop them!
However, this article points out that what drives narcissism much of the time appears to be quite a different factor: a profound insecurity. This certainly explains how people can be narcissistic without being psychopaths. Yet it also brings into question how far “psychopathy” and “narcissism” are compatible with one another. The article described narcissists as
Since psychopaths tend to be low in neurotic traits, less fear-driven, and not at all prone (as far as I’m aware) to feelings like “shame,” I must wonder whether the “narcissism” seen in numerous psychopaths might be qualitatively different from the “narcissism” seen in non-psychopaths. Perhaps “narcissistic” psychopaths are just plain self-indulgent.
To put this another way, psychopaths focus on gratifying their own whims and desires at other people’s expense because they have no cause to care about the needs and rights of others. Narcissists can’t spare a thought for the needs and rights of others because they’re too desperately obsessed with bolstering their own egos.
It is a paradox, insofar as the narcissist’s “false front” of arrogance and apparent high self esteem is actually a “defense,” a determined attempt to compensate for and “block out” inner feelings of inadequacy. Narcissists can’t stand anyone who makes them “look bad,” and as they mentioned above, can react angrily even to imagined criticism. That baffles many people who have no idea why a narcissist got angry at them. It also seems certain that “putting others down” helps the narcissist feel better by comparison with others.
This is a key point. Comprehension of abusive people is often distorted by “victim subjectivity.” “Victims” often see what’s done to them from their own point of view, but not from the abuser’s point of view. Among other things this can lead to the fallacy of equating consequence with intention. Some people attribute motives to abusers that are not the abuser’s real (or anyway “main”) motive at all.
For instance, somebody who’s attacked and devalued by a narcissist might feel hurt, suffer a loss of self esteem, and be plagued by feelings of self-doubt that can leave them more vulnerable to the narcissist’s further depredations. Afterwards they may say that the narcissist “meant” to hurt them, “meant” to destroy their self esteem, and pursued a strategy “intended to render them easier to control.” But that’s only maybe. Just because those things were the consequences of what the narcissist did, that doesn’t have to mean that’s what the narcissist intended when doing those things. As for “meaning to hurt” someone, there’s a good chance the narcissist wasn’t thinking one way or the other whether they “hurt” anyone or not! The truly self-absorbed narcissist is concerned only with how well another person is feeding their desire for ego gratification—and only “hits out” at that person for failing to fulfill that function as the narcissist thinks they ought to.
Narcissists seem to believe the whole world revolves around them, or that if it doesn’t, it ought to! If the world fails to do that, narcissists feel shortchanged, and they’re offended! Narcissists tend to see the whole world as an extension of themselves. When someone else acts in a manner contrary to their wishes, narcissists can be just as discombobulated as if their own hand and arm had refused to obey their commands!
I don’t think most psychopaths suffer from that illusion. Psychopaths usually recognize the reality that the rest of the world has its own separate existence, and doesn’t willingly revolve around them. They realize that other people pursue interests of their own, which are often in conflict with those of the psychopath. But psychopaths still feel perfectly entitled to exploit the rest of the world any way they can.
Naturally! The world failed to reflect their own preferred image of themselves.
Again, naturally! They’re being cut off from their desperately needed source of ego gratification—from what Sam Vaknin dubbed “narcissistic supply.”
This too is no surprise. Adolescence is a time of peak insecurity. Among those who are only mildly narcissistic for this reason, narcissism wanes with maturity and with the increase is genuine, healthy self-confidence that comes with it.
Sure! All of these tactics refocus other people’s attention and conversation on themselves, reflecting how “important” they are, feeding and propping up their hungry, tottering egos. “But that’s enough about me! Now tell me something about ME!”
Yes, challenge and rejection strike to the core of a narcissist’s insecurities. Narcissists typically have to be “always right” about everything. They can’t stand to be put in the wrong.
My one criticism of Anita Vangelisti’s remarks is her emphasis on the notion that narcissistic behavior is geared toward the “one objective” of “maintaining power” in a relationship. While there is some obvious truth in that, I think it’s often overestimated, frequently due to the “victim subjectivity” I mentioned earlier.
The term “power” itself is so broad and vague that it can mean almost anything. For that reason some people are prone to interpret the term wrongly, as if it meant “power over other people purely for the sake of controlling those people.” I think more women (like Vangelisti perhaps) can be prone to doing this because they often “personalize” an issue rather than recognizing the inanimate, even abstract factors that lie behind it. In the interactions Vangelisti discussed, “maintaining power” doesn’t have to be an end in itself. It’s only a means to an end, that “end” being the securing of “narcissistic supply” to feed the narcissist’s ego. And it’s almost certain that narcissists at bottom feel “powerLESS,” which is why they claw so desperately for it.
Two other comments:
This is true, but it may be muddling two unrelated ideas together. On the one hand it’s entirely reasonable to point out that narcissism exists on a continuum. People in general can only be described as “more narcissistic” or “less so.” That does of course pose the problem of “how narcissistic” they have to be in order to qualify as “personality disordered.” Any answer is bound be somewhat arbitrary. But that’s a problem with every such disorder. For instance, “how deficient in conscience” must anyone be to qualify as a psychopath? So that problem in itself is not a justification for jettisoning the concept of “narcissistic personality disorder.”
On the other hand this paragraph speaks of narcissism being a “constellation” of traits. The notion of multiple traits is a totally separate idea from that of a continuum. In part this seems to suggest that with all these multiple traits on top of the “continuum” problem, the whole business of “narcissism” is just too complicated to categorize. So the DSM committee has thrown up its hands in despair, saying “let’s do away with the whole thing.” But as I think the article shows, “narcissism” in the pathological sense is not just any old collection of unrelated traits. On the contrary, it’s a set of traits that can result together in a consistent fashion from a reasonably well understood theoretical cause. I personally believe it’s a mistake for the APA to discard the diagnosis of NPD.
But if I had one major criticism, it’s that the scope of the article could have been wider.
I’d say that’s far from true. It struck me after I’d read it that the article, while it’s thorough enough in exploring the psyche of the narcissist, is limited in its discussion of how narcissists impact life at large. Apart from vague references to “social circles”—like cocktail parties perhaps?—the article’s scope is almost entirely restricted to the topic of mate selection and related matters like sex. Even the very framework of the remark I quoted is all about how people are bothered by narcissists of the opposite sex! As if narcissists didn’t pose a problem to people of the same sex as well, in contexts of every kind!
The article says nothing about broader issues, public issues like narcissists in the workplace or in politics, or personal issues like narcissists in marriage or in the family. Narcissists can wreak havoc in all of these roles. Strangely, despite all this talk of romance and “relationships,” the words “husband,” “wife,” or “marriage” do not occur anywhere in the article. As for the comment I quoted, I’m sure multitudes of men who were NOT looking for “short-term flings” have been far more than just “bothered” by finding themselves married to a narcissistic woman. Especially one who exploits a man, then “devalues and discards” him, taking his children and his money with her. Children are a captive source of narcissistic supply to a narcissistic parent. And multitudes of children have been damaged in childhood by the “care” of a narcissistic mother or father.
So if the article helps people to avoid marrying one, that’s a much-needed public service.
sky – do you think it is the same for narcs and spaths?
Dear Redwald,
As always a thoughtful and well presented article on the article. 🙂
I think too there are INTENTIONAL things that N’s do to put others down, and there are things that are UN-INTENTIONAL. For example, the N that eats the last piece of cake, knowing you haven’t had any, but just not even stopping to realize that it would be right and just that since they have had 4 pieces they save the last one for you. Versus, the N who having had 4 pieces and being unable to eat the last piece, drops it on the floor intentionally so that YOU ARE DEPRIVED FROM HAVING ANY.
Then there are the Ns that are so intent on ATTENTION, and have little idea that negative attention may be the result, but willing to do ANYTHING for attention, for example the “Octomom” who I think really thought she was the cat’s meow with the attention, but now with 14 kids and the negative attention, plus the responsibility for those kids, two of whom are handicapped in some way, said the other day that she “despises” the babies and the older 6 are monsters because she has not been able to give them enough attention to train them.
If that woman is not an N seeking attention I am not sure who one would nominate for the role. There are positive ways an N can seek attention—in sports, politics, and other careers–that are more socially acceptable and less likely to get negative attention. I also don’t think her doctor thought he would lose his license for his part in the conceiving of the liter of children either.
Redwald- Thank you for that very in-depth explanation of the article. I still don’t agree that narcissism decreases with age. My father has only gotten worse with his and my ex doesn’t seem to be slowing down either. I think that they are just better able to hide it as they age. They learn more about social norms and acceptable outward behavior and, therefore, are able to mask their disorder better.
The other area I’m not sure I’m clear about is when you say, “This is a key point. Comprehension of abusive people is often distorted by “victim subjectivity.” “Victims” often see what’s done to them from their own point of view, but not from the abuser’s point of view. Among other things this can lead to the fallacy of equating consequence with intention. Some people attribute motives to abusers that are not the abuser’s real (or anyway “main”) motive at all.”
I agree that my ex didn’t set out to intentionally hurt me in the beginning, but there were times in our relationship that I feel he was purposefully sadistic towards me. It is kind of a gray area because I know I was just an avenue for him to get the admiration from his friends. They were his main supply. I was a tool he used and therefore, my feelings were of little regard to him. But when he was angry with me, his mistreatment was directed at me and his intention was to hurt me. The reason behind his intention was to save face. But nevertheless, he intended to hurt me.