A Lovefraud reader informs us that the current issue of Psychology Today features an article about narcissists—how they behave, and how to detect them. It’s an interesting article, because narcissism is a component of sociopathy. All sociopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are sociopaths.
Read How to spot a narcissist, on PsychologyToday.com.
Note: The article quotes the theories of a researcher named Peter Jonason, among others. Lovefraud has written about Jonason’s ideas before—I don’t agree with them. You can read it here:
One Joy,
that is a great question and after reading Redwalds article, I would say yes, it applies equally. I think psychopathy is just a form of malignant narcissism. I disagree with Redwald that p’s don’t suffer from an illusion. They all suffer from the same inability to see the world from any perspective that does not revolve around them. It is IMPERITIVE that all of their extensions see them as the center of the universe.
What most people cannot grasp is the AMAZING ability of an entitled n or p to reel US into believing what they believe. NONE of us wants to admit that we are vulnerable to a narcissist, EVEN WHEN WE KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
Your sister seems to be extraordinarily intelligent to you and probably many others. It is her own belief that creates that.
When I go shopping, my BF has mentioned that I act extrememly entitled. That’s one place that my narcissism takes the lead, which I was not aware of, until he pointed it out. I almost always get what I want when I believe that I will. BF is a narcissist, in my opinion worse than me, but not when he’s shopping. And he never gets the good deals or the better price, like I do. It is a human trait, to be able to convince others of what you believe, JUST BY THE POWER OF YOUR BELIEF THAT YOU ARE ENTITLED. I’m not encouraging this in anyone here, I think it’s kind of disgusting, but at the same time, I’ll acknowledge that it’s true.
BTW, P’s always set out to harm, and I think they know this, but I’m not sure that it applies in every case.
Skylar,
I am going to agree with you. “P’s ALWAYS set out to HARM”. Furthermore, I AM SURE it applies in every case and I will explain why I think so.
Spaths (p’s) are adversarial. THEY MUST WIN. That is their PRIME directive. Therefore, there MUST be a loser. Spaths NEVER do win/win b/c if the other person “wins”, to a spath mindset, that is the same as A LOSS against them and spaths do not let a loss stand. Therefore, in order to “WIN”, an spath (p) MUST make the other a LOSER or create some kind of harm to guarantee “loss”. It does not do any good to “give in” b/c If an spath is NOT a clear winner, they up the ante until they are clearly “WINNING!”.
Redwald wrote a lenthy response and I won’t review it with the depth that Redwald gives us, but I do have two minor notes regarding Redwald’s review.
Anytime the name Sam Valkin is used, to me it’s like waving a flag in front of a bull. It’s only fair that Redwald knows how Sam’s behavior undermines Redwalds authority. Since I am unable to assess Valkin’s influence on Redwald, just Sam’s name is enough to cause me to question the motive and validity of Redwald’s comments. Goes without saying, but I say it anyway for clarification: I don’t speak for anyone else.
And secondly, Redwald remarks re: those who are mildly narcissistic, that their narcissism peaks in adolescents and wanes with maturity. I think this correlates with NORMAL narcissism in teens and all that hormonal logic that says me me me. So that kind of narcissism is not the TRUE punitive narcissism that drives victims to seek relief here on LF. To lump normal narcissism in with toxic narcissism clouds the issue for me.
Redwald – thank you. A very interesting article.
Having read this through several times—..I agree. I do not think that he meant to hurt me. He was always shocked (if that’s possible) that he had hurt me. It was as if he did not understand that by doing this or that, I would be offended.
One thing he did loath was for me to be displeased with him. He was always seeking my approval (which I put down to low self esteem) It was important to him that I praised his efforts (even when the things that he did were stupid) For example, he tried to paint a small wall but a two year old could have done a better job! Then he stands back and smiles waiting for my approval. Same thing with cutting the grass ”“ it was a complete mess, but he would be so chuffed with himself. Again it would be ’look what I’ve done ”“ thank me’ Same thing with cooking dinner. There would be mess everywhere, up the walls, on the cooker, on the floor and again he would want praise. I would think WTF.
I believe he was insecure. His ego needed boosting all the time. And yes, he did imagine criticism where none was intended. Weird! He would always be ready with a response to justify a criticism that was never made!
Prone to a vast array of negative emotions including depression, anxiety, self-consciousness, and shame owing to not being given their “due.”
He would portray ’shame’ but I’m not sure that he actually felt shame. He would mimic disgust for instance about child abuse, be very defensive and say such people should be punished severely. Then I found out that he was a child abuser! He did not offer any remorse for the things he’d done.
’To put this another way, psychopaths focus on gratifying their own whims and desires at other people’s expense because they have no cause to care about the needs and rights of others’
This sentence is spot on.
’narcissists seek out people who maintain their high positive self-image, at the same time intentionally avoiding and putting down people who may give them a harsh dose of realism’
I saw this regularly. He would only seek people who could be useful to him. Others were discarded.
’It is a paradox, insofar as the narcissist’s “false front” of arrogance and apparent high self esteem is actually a “defense,” a determined attempt to compensate for and “block out” inner feelings of inadequacy’
Yep. I agree with this statement.
’Narcissists can’t stand anyone who makes them “look bad,” and as they mentioned above, can react angrily even to imagined criticism’
Anyone that made him look bad would ’pay’
’Narcissists seem to believe the whole world revolves around them, or that if it doesn’t, it ought to!
’Narcissism tends to peak in adolescence and decline with age’
I disagree with this statement. My spath has increased in his traits as he’s got older. He seems to be desperately fighting to hook in more people than ever before. Like an addict, it’s like the ’hit’ he’s getting is no longer fulfilling his needs so he’s lurching through life trying to find that golden goal.
’tactics in the narcissists’ toolbox include bragging, refocusing the topic of conversation, making exaggerated hand movements, talking loudly, and showing disinterest by “glazing over” when others speak’
Oh yes, he always had to be the centre of attention. He would almost jump out of his chair, if the conversation were not relating to him. Cut across a conversation, butt in, and refocus the conversation about HIM.
“But that’s enough about me! Now tell me something about ME!” This is a classic sentence.
’They get angry when rejected, overreacting to small slights and punishing those who do not support their grandiose image of themselves’
Over reacting is an understatement!
’Narcissists typically have to be “always right” about everything’ (((LMAO)))
Hi Sisterhood,
Yes, pretty much anything they say about personality disorders is bound to be a generalization. There are always exceptions. Some of it depends on who’s doing the surveys as well! So regrettably there’s nothing unexpected about your father and your ex getting worse instead of better with age. Some people always will.
Redwald – I agree about the questions which are asked.
For instance I may ask someone ‘do you prefer the colour blue or red?’
This only gives the person the option of two answers. It does not make any reference (or give the person a chance) to express their preference for say…..pink.
I do feel that our perceptions, upbringing, expectations, pain thresholds, past experiences etc have a great bearing on how we experience a spath too.
The bottom line is that we were all sucked in to their fantasy and we were damaged as a result.
I think it is hard to tell if someone is a narcissist or psychopath if they are covert. The experience I had was that the overt signs of narcissist weren’t visible but lying underneath the exterior. I really didn’t see any vulnerability in him until the very end of our marriage and I don’t know if it was an act.
There is a book called “The Psychopathic Test” by Jon Ronson (not sure if I got that right, read the book yesterday in the book store) but it was REALLY interesting. He interviews Bob Hare and the author is engaging and funny. Ronson starts to see psychopathic traits (on the Hare checklist) in himself and so many others. The checklist needs to be administered by a professional and one who is trained properly.
Another interesting fact in the book was made by the person who started making the lists and catagorizing disorders in the first DSM manual. It was only 60 some pages long and was made by a bunch of psychologists in a room shouting out names of maladies and naming them with a disorder. He talked about disorder names that didn’t make the book and how we over diagnose and treat (especially supposed bi-polar in children) when we don’t need to.
I didn’t buy this book (it’s hard cover and $28) but I read the whole thing and would recommend it. When it comes out in softcover I would get it.
Who really knows how to put narcissism or sociopathy in a defineable box. We know most of the traits and we know they are toxic. I think all they do is to protect themselves at any cost and we are simply collateral damage. It has helped me with my recovery to know that there are other people here who have met up with the same sort of toxic person (or usually persons) who can share with and give advice.
The therapists and professionals can’t even decide what’s what. Some of the early treatment methods for psychopaths were really experimental, one doctor gave them LSD and put them all in the same room. He actually thought he was making progress with them. After the psychopaths were released from prison and the treatment program, 80% went on to re-offend and I think the rest just didn’t get caught.
I’m digressing from the topic but there is so much I want to say and don’t quite know how to piece it together. To sum up, they are bad people, simply bad and we need to stay away from them forever!
Hi there hopeforjoy! check out the link i posted about the genesis of the DSM yesterday: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/new-health/conditions/addiction/mental-health/where-is-its-mind-what-the-battle-over-the-bible-says-about-psychiatry/article2091844/
redwald – you may find this intriguing, also: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health/new-health/conditions/addiction/mental-health/where-is-its-mind-what-the-battle-over-the-bible-says-about-psychiatry/article2091844/
Is this ‘evil’ born or is it inspired?
What triggers it?
What could possibly make a human being emotionless and this sick and evil?
I think that is the question all of us would love to have answered. We will not sit down and hush up and go away, no matter how much the ‘IT’ would love us too. Perhaps there are no answers to my questions. It seems the more I learn and educate myself, the deeper that rabbit hole goes, without really there ever being a definitive answer or explanation. I guess I really don’t care as long as I am not forced, through my own affections, to live within that nightmare anymore.
Dealing with and living with the extreme betrayal I think is the hardest part. It’s that part that makes my soul weep within. To know that you weren’t even worth the truth. THAT is how important you have been.
There is no other way to define nor explain what the aftermath has been like for me. It has been like being locked into almost five years of pure shock and disbelief. It was more horrible than anyone could imagine and there are a lot of things I have shared with no one as yet. Horrible, demeaning, ugly things.
For me, so far, on this journey, for me, I have found taking care of my health to be of primary importance. Eating right; resting right; getting myself on some kind of schedule and sticking to it. I have found myself ‘hermitizing’ and that’s not a bad thing. It saves a lot of added confusion and bewilderment until I get this thing figured out completely in my mind.
I have been trying to focus on myself more.
If we don’t take care of ourselves, who is going to?
I have been trying to eat healthy; not drink alcohol (although I am a firm believer that a glass of red wine once in a while keeps the ticker cleaned out and makes me feel better!)
Maybe there are no answers for WHY they are like they are.
I guess it really doesn’t matter as long as it’s away from me.
It had better stay away from me or I will take steps to MAKE it stay away from me and so far, NC from “IT” since 10JUN. That is a great thing.
Maybe there just aren’t any answers and why should we care?
We should care about ourselves and be good to ourselves and not allow this nightmare to perpetuate inside of us any more. As I appropriately told “IT” in my farewell speech: “Turn the page…”
That is what this experience deserves: to become history. So far removed from the memory that it only inspires us into action and that which is just, right and honorable. Grab a hold of all that bad and turn it around and send it back out as good. That is the way that “WE” become justified and solidified.
Happy Sunday Everyone…
DUPED
Hey there Duped!
How’s it going? I’m glad that you are focused on “taking care of yourself” – of course that’s what we all need to do! I too live like a “hermit” for the most part, and the solitary lifestyle will probably always have a strong appeal for me. I only have two or three intimate friends, but somehow that is more than enough….
That said, be careful not to overdo it, and don’t neglect going out to visit your kids and granddaughter on a regular basis. Sometimes “getting out of the house” might sound like too much of a hassle – but that’s usually when we need it most! In any case, a modest amount of human contact will often do more to improve one’s outlook than an afternoon spent with the therapist! (Especially for those of us who happen to be saddled with a hypersensitive constitution! -haha)
With love and best wishes,
Constantine